Evidence of meeting #5 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugee.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Saad Hammadi  Regional Campaigner, South Asia, Amnesty International
Zaid Al-Rawni  Chief Executive Officer, Islamic Relief Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira
Marten Mylius  Country Director, CARE Colombia
Joe Belliveau  Executive Director, Doctors Without Borders
Jason Nickerson  Humanitarian Affairs Advisor, Doctors Without Borders
Shujaat Wasty  Founder and Board Member, OBAT Canada

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal Humber River—Black Creek, ON

From what you all have said and from what our previous panel mentioned as well, the coronavirus is probably just one more of those awful things that everybody is having to deal with, and this is probably secondary to a lot of people.

Mr. Mylius, could you talk a little bit more about the Venezuelan issues and what's continuing to happen over there? How are the states handling immigration controls? How are they dealing with immigration in those particular areas that you mentioned? How is that affecting the rights of migrants?

7:55 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

The thing at the moment is that since March the borders have been closed. There's basically no way to enter the country in any kind of regularized way, such as going through migration. In the area that we work in, Norte de Santander, and along the routes of the caminantes, there were big crossings. There were thousands of people every day crossing in a regularized fashion. That's not happening anymore. The borders are closed.

We are not sure; there was some expectation that in November it might open again, but yesterday the president announced that the sanitary emergency was extended until the end of February next year. We don't really expect any kind of border to reopen now. But the border is porous, as I mentioned. There are the trochas, the illegal crossings—it's estimated there are a little more than one hundred—that people are using. There's a huge presence of non-state armed actors, so it raises incredibly the risks of crossing. People are being asked to pay.

There's another pandemic of disappearances in the border region. There's forced recruitment into those groups. We talk about guerrilla groups, but there are also narco-trafficker and paramilitary groups. There are all kinds of groups, because it's also the second-highest region for coca plantations. The large presence of coca plantations of course attracts a lot of these groups. The migrants, not aware of the situation, are being drafted into the groups in human trafficking.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal Humber River—Black Creek, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Mylius. My time is up.

Thank you, all, for the information.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

We will move to the Conservatives for seven minutes with Mr. Reid.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mylius, I have some additional questions for you.

First, your expertise is with regard to Venezuelans in Colombia. I gather that a majority of the five million Venezuelans who've had to leave their country are actually in Brazil. Is that right, that about a million and a half are in Colombia and most of the rest are in Brazil?

7:55 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

No. The 1.8 million—that's an official figure—are actually in Colombia. The other countries are Chile, which has a very large number, Peru and Ecuador. There's a smaller number in Brazil.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Okay. I stand corrected. Thank you.

You've described in considerable detail the treatment in Colombia and the dangers in Colombia. Is it less bad or equally bad in other countries?

7:55 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

We have had a long-standing presence and programs in Peru and Ecuador. In our experience, I think the main difference that's very important is that, for example, in Ecuador there is access to the health system. You don't have to be regularized. You don't have to be a legal documented migrant in order to have access to the health system and other public services. In Colombia that's the case. That's a huge structural problem for the refugees and migrants here.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

One of the problems with COVID, of course, is that it causes the health care system to be beyond capacity. We've all heard—even in Canada it's news—how bad the pandemic has been in Ecuador in particular. In a situation like that, are the non-nationals sent to the back of the line?

7:55 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

That's a good question. I would say, yes, there's a huge problem. I think one of the panel members mentioned that there is xenophobia. There's hostility. People are being rejected. They don't have the same access to services.

In our program experience, many people working in the health system share the same prejudices: Venezuelans are lazy; they bring guns; they bring drugs. There's a whole xenophobic narrative. That is now also coupled with fear: We don't know what's happening inside Venezuela; their health system has collapsed; we don't trust any of the figures of the government there; they're probably spreading the virus to us.

All of that together, yes, makes it very difficult, incredibly difficult. That's why we cannot really trust official figures here regarding the coronavirus spread in the refugee and migration community.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Right. That's very easy to believe.

Looking at the numbers quickly, because we're comparing the Rohingya in Bangladesh to the Venezuelans in Colombia and elsewhere, I observed that in Colombia the rate of COVID, if we can trust official figures, is about seven times as high as a percentage of the population as it is in Bangladesh.

It sounds like they don't believe they've got it under control. Are they experiencing a second wave of the sort we have here in Canada where things are seen as getting worse? Here there's a public policy response that we should be trying to shut down economic activity. Is something like that going on?

I ask this in part because I assume many Venezuelans literally must work in order to be fed. They don't have the option of going home and living off their savings or off some kind of government relief.

8 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

We saw the peak here at the end of August. Because of all the aggressive measures that were taken very early, it took longer to reach that first peak. Since we don't have seasons here, we don't have winter. It's on a high level but it's stable. At the moment it fluctuates between 6,000 to 8,000 new cases on a daily basis.

It's a very fragile situation, so everybody's expecting there might be a second wave. We are seeing it's more regionalized. You'll find spikes in certain regions, but the general picture looks stable at the moment.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Belliveau, I get the impression that of all our witnesses you're the one who has the widest range of international experience at your fingertips. For example, you mentioned the situation in Lesbos, which is outside the area that we're studying. Looking at best and worst practices, it's relevant to look at other places.

When you look at the different situations in the world where, among other things, refugees and migrants are dealing with issues associated with COVID and the other health effects that are caused by the existence of COVID, where would you say that it's being done better than elsewhere? That is the public policy response, the response from the authorities.

November 26th, 2020 / 8 p.m.

Executive Director, Doctors Without Borders

Joe Belliveau

I'm going to ask my colleague Jason Nickerson to respond to that one.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Sure.

Thank you.

8 p.m.

Humanitarian Affairs Advisor, Doctors Without Borders

Dr. Jason Nickerson

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have an answer immediately at my fingertips.

I think that what we're seeing around the world is a really complex set of circumstances. I'm not sure there's necessarily one place that has hit it out of the park, so to speak. We've seen a lot of countries that have done a lot of things right in procurement systems to circumvent or get ahead of some of the stockouts of PPE and that sort of thing. I think that certainly places it within health programs that continue to focus on maintaining the emergency and the essential services that Mr. Belliveau spoke about earlier.

These are the things we have learned over decades of being in an emergency medical response organization. By and large in our projects we've managed to sustain our emergency and essential programs. It's difficult to do that across an entire health system and across health systems and services that are set up for different populations and so on. It's a very complex global response.

I'm not sure I have the exact answer that I think you're looking for where, if you look at this one place and put your finger on it, it's been exemplary across the board.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Reid.

We're now going to move to the Bloc and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.

8:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be for Mr. Mylius, who is currently in Bogota. As I filmed a documentary there in 2004, this is a city I am quite familiar with.

Mr. Mylius, you talked earlier about armed groups, paramilitary groups, cartels. How is the relationship between those groups and the Venezuelan refugees in Colombia? What are you seeing on the ground?

8:05 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

In Norte de Santander, there is an area called Tibú, which was also mentioned by another panel member, and Catatumbo north of Norte de Santander in the border region. That is a zone for coca plantations, and there's a presence of at least five different armed groups. It is an area that sits right on the border and has an official border crossing. It is one of the zones where refugees and migrants are coming in. It's an increasing concern.

There are disappearances. People are telling us what has happened. Women were kidnapped. People had to pay, and they lost all their luggage. Basically, the border is not controlled by either of the two governments. There was also a Human Rights Watch report a few months ago stating that the entire border region is controlled by the ELN, one of the oldest guerrilla groups in South America.

8:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you for your answer.

You have also talked about xenophobia toward Venezuelans on Colombian soil. How does that affect security and, more specifically, services provided to Venezuelans in Colombia, including those related to COVID-19?

8:05 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

Absolutely. We have our office in a place called Pamplona. It's on the route of the caminantes. It's a hill town not far from the border. It's one and a half hours by car. As an example, there were four albergues where caminantes and Venezuelans were allowed to stay overnight. They got food. It was an initiative by the local civil society.

There was so much backlash during the pandemic against providing these services that all four albergues were forced to close. When we tried to open an alternative spot, the whole community rioted. There were riot police. This was three or four weeks ago, when I was there with my team.

COVID is interfering tremendously with our ability to provide services to those groups. It has escalated in the last month because of the pandemic, because of the fear people have. There is a xenophobic narrative that's been going on already in the last four or five years. It preceded the pandemic.

8:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

You are on the ground and you are witnessing those types of situations. Could measures be implemented to fight that anti-refugee sentiment?

I am asking for your personal opinion, as you seem to be an expert in the area.

8:05 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

It is a priority of our program, as well. That's one of our strengths. CARE does humanitarian work, but we have a dual mandate. We have a lot of development experience, so we bring both approaches together. We work with the local community. We have women leaders in an emergency program where we work with the local communities, with Colombian women, Colombian returnees from Venezuela, and Venezuelans. They work together on projects. We build groups that are comprised of both groups.

It's not something we could solve with a few projects. It's very prevalent all over the country. Because of the sheer number of people, they feel overwhelmed. The economy is not going well, and millions have lost their jobs. This dynamic drives the xenophobic narrative. They come and tell us that because we are providing these services, that's why the people are coming, that they're lazy, they're Venezuelans, and they just want these services. It's a very complex situation, but we approach that as an integral part of our program.

8:10 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I assume Venezuelans currently on Colombian soil have a tremendous need for food resources. How could Canada contribute to food assistance?

8:10 p.m.

Country Director, CARE Colombia

Marten Mylius

The main thing people are asking for, and that we also totally support, is an approach to dignity. That is, basically, regularize and integrate an access to the labour market rather than food handouts. That would be my short answer. That's probably what almost everybody will ask for.