Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2021

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for your input.

Speaking of Venezuela, we understand that the opposition parliamentarians have been facing threats, suppressions and surveillance—needless to say, intimidation and violence.

Is there any suggestion in the report or in the committee of what parliamentarians around the world could do, including here in Canada—especially SDIR, the international human rights subcommittee here? What could we focus on and perhaps shine some light into or take some action on to help our fellow parliamentarians?

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

In the case of Venezuela, we actually have a member of the committee who is from Venezuela. She gives us some heart-rending stories of how she effectively has to escape from the country. She fears she'll be arrested if she leaves Venezuela to go to the plenary sessions we used to hold pre-COVID, and getting back into her country is difficult.

Despite not being able to visit Venezuela, we have done regular reports. I'm trying to think of the number of MPs involved, but I think it would be in excess of 100 members of Parliament who are on the list of the investigation into that specific country.

We do make a substantial report to the plenary session. David McGuinty, correct me—there would be 600, 700 or 800 people who would be at the plenary sessions. They are hearing of the abuses that are occurring, not that it's not public knowledge, but the session that we give to the major plenary session certainly reveals the difficulty that we're having in getting proper information. Furthermore, it shows the difficulty that those opposition MPs are having in a—well, it's no longer a democracy; it's a dictatorship, isn't it?

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 90 seconds.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

In the remaining 90 seconds, I want to put a focus on Zimbabwe. This committee has also heard about the situation in Zimbabwe with female politicians being abducted, and there are cases of forced disappearances.

I wonder if you could also help us to determine what an advanced democracy like Canada can do in a blossoming democracy like Zimbabwe. Perhaps give more specific suggestions.

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

I don't think I'm in a position to advise the Canadian politicians on what they can do in Zimbabwe.

Can I give you a very close example? Fiji is a very close country to New Zealand geographically, a country that wasn't a democracy and became a democracy. When I became Speaker, I actually went and spent two or three days with parliamentarians, particularly with their Speaker, with members of Parliament and with opposition members of Parliament, trying to do what we could as a larger country close by, doing everything we could to help a struggling democracy.

I think the developments in Fiji would mean that they are developing a democracy that's true and relevant. Countries have to decide how they're going to help these countries with weaker democracies, but you make very little progress unless the weaker democracy is prepared to co-operate and realize that it needs assistance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Carter.

We're going to be moving now to MP Brunelle-Duceppe from the Bloc.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the two witnesses who are with us tonight. Everything we're learning is really fantastic, and it's really interesting.

But there are still some questions that bother me.

I wonder, in particular, if there are sometimes disagreements within the Inter-Parliamentary Union. The example that comes to mind is that of the Catalan parliamentarians imprisoned by the Spanish government. When this happened, I imagine that there must have been friction within the Inter-Parliamentary Union. What happens in such cases?

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

When we have these plenary sessions and there are visiting members of Parliament and there is conflict between two countries, we often have some very heated discussions. I think of the situation and the relationship, or lack of relationship, between Palestine and Israel.

If you go back to Venezuela, they try to send non-elected people—the person who was declared to be elected—instead of genuine, elected members of Parliament. There is thus conflict that will occur on the floor in the plenary of these sessions; it can't be avoided.

I think it is a demonstration then, to the balance of members attending IPU plenaries, of the problems and the angst and arguments that are occurring between countries and even within countries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Did the Inter-Parliamentary Union receive a complaint when the Catalan parliamentarians were imprisoned?

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

I don't recall any case that was lodged before the committee whilst I was a member in respect of Catalonia, no. I haven't been involved now for the last 12 or 18 months, so something may have developed since then.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So you confirm that nothing happened.

I don't know if this is part of your discussions or if it worries you, but there is a growing sense, even in the west, of a rise in the promoters of conspiracy theories, such as the QAnon group, which was a marginal phenomenon in the beginning. Of course, the situation does not compare to that of some developing countries or, for example, what is currently happening in Burma. Nevertheless, we see citizens in America who arrest parliamentarians outright and incite their fellow citizens to do the same. We saw this right here, just last fall, when citizens arrested parliamentarians on Parliament Hill.

Do you think the situation is worrying or do you think things will settle down and the phenomenon will remain marginal?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Perhaps I can answer the question...

I think one of the things...

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

I'm sorry, I'm not aware of the situation you're referring to, an arrest of MPs within Canada. If an MP breaches our law and is under suspicion for our law, then perhaps that person should be arrested. What we're talking about is genuinely elected representatives in these other democracies who are then denied their right to participate in democracy.

The point I made in my opening remarks is that Canada and New Zealand live in very benign democracies: they work; we have elections. Sometimes we don't like the result, but we all accept the result. We move on and we wait for the next election.

That does not happen in many democracies around the world. The extent to which abuse was occurring was an eye-opener to me. I think at the moment, the committee I'm referring to is investigating about 500 or 600 MPs who have been abused and whose human rights are being denied in a total of 42 countries. It's a widespread problem.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. McGuinty, did you want to answer the question?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I just wanted to add that perhaps one of the most important things about the Inter-Parliamentary Union, or IPU, is that it is a gathering place. Mr. Carter talked about our plenary assemblies. We usually have between 1,000 and 1,400 legislators. Between 40% and 50 % of delegations are led by speakers of Parliament. That's a fairly important group internationally.

When we are there as a delegation, as Canadian legislators, we often meet with people in bilateral meetings. So we can really communicate our concerns about what's happening in Zimbabwe or Venezuela, for example.

With respect to capacity building, Canada was already supporting the IPU with a $2.5 million program to support the training and launching of women in politics. We are very committed to providing technical assistance in several countries, including Zimbabwe. On page 21 of the French version of the report, you can read the story of Ms. Joana Mamombe from Zimbabwe.

In today's world, the IPU is important because it can bring together countries from all over the world. The only country we are trying to bring back into the IPU is the United States. The United States has not been part of the Union since 1994, but with the change in government and the change in president, we may have an opportunity to work with them.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We hope so. What you are telling me is that the IPU is a place of exchange where we can create links to make things move forward later on.

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We're going to move now to our next questioner. That will be, from the NDP, Ms. Heather McPherson, for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, both of you gentlemen, for your testimony tonight; it's very interesting.

One area that I've done a bit of work in and am quite interested in concerns electoral observation: ensuring that the actual process of getting parliamentarians into the position is fair and equitable. Is that something that is part of the mandate of your group? Is it something you look at—the fairness by which parliamentarians become parliamentarians around the world?

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

The short answer there is no; we accept the democratic regime that has been determined by each country. The cases we are dealing with are of people who have been justifiably and legally elected under their own jurisdictions but then subsequently denied the ability to do their work.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Let me add to that, if I may, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Of course, please do.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I have the privilege of sitting on the executive committee of the organization worldwide. I represent 47 parliaments on that executive committee, including New Zealand's, and it's a debate that's ongoing: is it of comparative advantage for the IPU to pronounce on the freeness and the fairness of elections, so to speak?

The decision has been taken at the executive committee level to hold back on that front, because there are other groups that appear to be very expert in this kind of thing. It relies more on the United Nations and other groups that track elections and on election observation missions.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Let's look, for example, at Belarus, where there was not a fair, transparent, free election and the winner is not recognized. You would not recognize that Parliament; therefore, you would not examine.... If anything were brought up about that Parliament, it would not be recognized by your group, then?

[Sir David Cunningham Carter]

When I was involved on the committee, there were, going from memory, two or three cases from Belarus, so the short answer is, provided they've been duly elected and can prove to us that they are duly elected members of Parliament and then they suffer abuse, that case is eligible for us to do further work on.