Evidence of meeting #19 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gangs.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank all the witnesses who are participating in this extremely important study. I am proud that it was the Bloc Québécois that proposed it.
Mr. Boisrond, I was interviewed yesterday with Jean-Ernest Pierre on radio station CPAM. One of the things that kept coming up was that Canada has never apologized for what happened in the past. It seems to me that it is important to the Haitian community to do that.
The apologies have never come, and yet we know that Canada is capable of apologizing in many cases. I think it is important to admit wrongdoing in order to start off on a new footing. Do you think this is important or just symbolic?
9:20 a.m.
Sociologist, As an Individual
It is not important to me. The situation in the country is too serious to dwell on symbols. There are lives at stake. Women, girls, people are being raped, children are becoming child soldiers. We are not there.
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That's fine. That is exactly why we are here: to tackle what is most important.
You had harsh words for Mr. Cannon and Ms. Joly. We have no choice but to work with Ms. Joly, because she is part of the solution. As I heard you say, you are happy for Canada to take the initiative.
What should Canada tackle first, as a matter of urgency?
We have heard a number of witnesses over several meetings, and some tell us that the security aspect absolutely has to be resolved first. Does this mean intervention by foreign police, by foreign military? Not everyone agrees on that.
You also said we had to tackle the conditions that make the situation what it is. Does that mean there is a solution that is ultimately more humanitarian?
9:20 a.m.
Sociologist, As an Individual
If we wanted to eliminate the gang leaders in Haiti, we would not need to send anyone in, since I have seen on the news that it is possible to eliminate Al Qaeda people from the comfort of one's balcony.
When I look at the situation in Ukraine, I see that it is not really the Ukrainian army that is winning the war. And yet the country is receiving aid, intelligence aid in particular. I would leave it to the military people to comment on this, but from what I see in the news and what I have learned from history, it is possible to help the Haitian police without necessarily sending boots on the ground to Haiti. That is fairly obvious.
On the whole question of general aid, it has to have a structuring effect, to help the country start over and ensure that this kind of situation never recurs.
Mr. Dubourg mentioned my books. I have always argued that Haiti's future depends on strengthening its trade capacity. If we don't help the country to develop its presence in the market economy, the capitalist economy, it is condemned to poverty.
A series of projects were in place to that end, in the PetroCaribe fund. I think it was Ms. Asselin who mentioned that project, which was to be used to develop the agri-food industry in Haiti. If the agri-food industry had been developed, if the PHTK party had not squandered that money, Haiti would not have the level of poverty that it has today. The reason why people join gangs, and children join gangs too, is because they are too poor and they have no other prospects.
So it calls for structuring aid that will strengthen the country's trade capacity.
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you. I'm going to ask you some more questions, because this is too interesting.
For information, what is the relationship between the Haitian diaspora in Montreal and the people living in Haiti at present?
9:20 a.m.
Sociologist, As an Individual
Keep in mind that 40% of the economy of Haiti depends on transfers from the diaspora. The Haitian diaspora, particularly in Canada, is therefore extremely important, since it directly supports the economy of Haiti. Everyone knows someone who is suffering insecurity, be it a family member, a friend, or the friend of a friend. Everyone is aware of what is happening and everyone is worried.
I would repeat that the Haitian community in Montreal is worried. We feel that Canada is taking the initiative and our community can have an influence. We have had many, many opportunities to meet with you. I am here today, and I mentioned my meeting with the member for Bourassa. So we would like the community to be part of the solution too.
9:25 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Does Mr. Henry still have support in the diaspora in Montreal?
9:25 a.m.
Sociologist, As an Individual
I have not seen any support for Ariel Henry in the diaspora, and I believe everyone has understood that his government is illegitimate. Personally, I say it is not a government.
However, I want to point out that whatever solution is put in place, whether it be the Montana accord or something else, it will be outside the Haitian constitution, because of the assassination of Jovenel Moïse.
9:25 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Martel, given that the situation is an emergency, what role do you think international cooperation organizations have in the crisis going on now?
Again, I am using the word "emergency", because that really is the word we have to use for Haiti.
9:25 a.m.
Humanitarian Program Evaluation Consultant and Researcher, As an Individual
First, we have to learn from the errors of the past and make sure the aid provided is part of a long-term vision and is adapted to the needs of the people, and, if possible, that it is aligned with existing initiatives in Haiti. Many organizations, particularly in Quebec, have been in Haiti for years, and partnerships have already been established with Haitian organizations. So the way to provide effective aid that genuinely meets the needs of the people is by working to strengthen the projects and programs that are already in place.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
That's the bulk of the time.
Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
We'll continue with Ms. McPherson for seven minutes.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
It's a great pleasure for me to have our witnesses with us today. Thank you for your testimony.
I've had the privilege and pleasure of working with both Ms. Martel and Ms. Asselin in my previous life before I was elected.
Ms. Martel, I'm going to start with you, if I could.
I'm very interested in how you are talking about that humanitarian response and what it should look like. Every one of us is horrified about what we are seeing in Haiti right now and we're trying to find those ways to provide the support in the most effective way possible.
I'm hearing things like half of the population is food insecure. We've been hearing all of the things that you've said about needing to have indigenous solutions and long-term, predictable funding.
Are we finding ourselves in this situation because the responses the international community has provided to Haiti in the past have not been indigenous-led, long term, predictable and working with civil society? Is that why we're here?
Is there a risk that will happen again and we will provide a band-aid system of development?
9:25 a.m.
Humanitarian Program Evaluation Consultant and Researcher, As an Individual
I would not want to say that the present situation is essentially a result of the way aid has been provided in the past. Obviously, it is much more complex than that. However, the way aid is coordinated and provided on an emergency basis unfortunately has negative consequences in the longer term for the development projects that are already in place in the country.
We have seen this in the past, after the earthquake. Aid arrived in massive amounts with no coordination on the part of the Haitian authorities, and that meant that the priorities were not established by the Haitian actors.
We also saw it in the case of the United Nations clusters and when various coordinating bodies got involved. The effect was to weaken the aid, unfortunately, because they left it much too late to seek out Haitian help.
So I question the idea that when there is an emergency, the international humanitarian actors have to be brought in because they are the ones that have the expertise. Even if the situation is an emergency and there is food insecurity, the solutions have to be local. There are civil society organizations that specialize in these areas and in emergency aid, and they are the ones that the Canadian non-governmental organizations have to listen too first, and with whom they have to establish partnerships.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
So perhaps, then, something that we could say, or that we could say as a committee in one of our recommendations, is that now going forward [Technical difficulty—Editor] our development aid needs to be increased. It needs to be long-term and predictable. It needs to engage with civil society and Haitian communities. That's how Canada should be looking at providing their aid.
You talked a little bit about the UN coming in and doing this work. Do you think the UN mission at this point, if it were given a very strict mandate and some very strict guardrails, would be an appropriate response at the moment, if it then did use the indigeneity and the local expertise?
9:30 a.m.
Humanitarian Program Evaluation Consultant and Researcher, As an Individual
We are talking about a humanitarian intervention. That means the United Nations agencies would play a more active role, as was the case in the last decade. The United Nations' role was to coordinate humanitarian aid in various sectors, including food, the purification of drinking water, and health. If the United Nations decides to play that role, it will have to work collaboratively with the Haitian Ministry of Public Health and Population and the National Directorate of Potable Water and Sanitation, which was not the case in the past. There will have to be assurance that the way aid is coordinated strengthens and supports the leadership role of the Haitian institutions.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Ms. Martel.
Ms. Asselin, you spoke quite a bit about the Montana accord. I know that you have a great deal of information representing so many organizations that work in Haiti. We know that not all Haitians support the Montana accord. There is this risk that this could be a divisive thing to be supporting that, or that there are some people who are supporting it publicly but perhaps not behind closed doors.
Can you talk a little bit more about the Montana accord and Canada's role with regard to moving forward on the Montana accord, please?
9:30 a.m.
Executive Director, Association québécoise des organismes de coopération internationale
Our Haitian partners tell us that if Canada continues to work with an illegitimate government, there is a high risk that it will prolong the current democratic crisis. As was said this morning, there is a strong consensus: people do not believe that the present government is legitimate. To resolve the immediate humanitarian crisis, the United Nations representatives are already on site and are taking measures to combat cholera, and the Food and Agriculture Organization, the FAO, is trying to solve the major food crisis.
There is a democratic crisis. This is a key element for managing the crisis. We think we need to focus on the Montana accord. Will it be perfect? Will there be disagreement? Certainly, but what else will we do? Will we continue supporting an illegitimate government that is still not prepared to call an election? In fact, in what circumstances would it do that?
However, there is a strong consensus, one that was renewed in January, about the creation of a joint governance structure that is very much worth considering. That structure would include civil society representatives, in particular women's groups and churches, and all parties on the political chessboard. The Montana group knows that it is essential that a consensus be built, and that the objective is not to keep the government in office, but to have elections in two years. There is a signed, public commitment in writing to that. We believe that rather than supporting a totally illegitimate government, the Government of Canada must support that accord, meet with the signatories, and work with them to see how to proceed.
That risk has to be measured.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you, Ms. McPherson and Ms. Asselin.
We will now continue for five minutes with Ms. Vandenbeld.