Evidence of meeting #13 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Bombardier Inc.
Mr. Bains, the short answer to your question is that we have not done an analysis of that sort.
I can make two observations. First, access to markets on fair conditions is essential to our survival. About 95% of our business takes place outside the country, and some 35% of our employees are in the country. So the equation is pretty clear.
Second, our success in this market and others depends on our capacity to innovate and to invest in innovation. The best jobs are in engineering innovation, in high technology. So better access creates better jobs, at least in our industry, and it preserves other high-quality jobs as well.
Non-tariff barriers have to come down. That's why we need the agreement.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Gentlemen, welcome and thank you for being here with us.
Some of you mentioned that there had been no consultations. So we are having consultations here to include you. I'd like to know whether any of you have been consulted by the government in order to examine, study and analyze the possible consequences of this agreement and to determine the expectations of each of your industries.
In your case, Mr. Laliberté, you represent many people, since you represent 550,000 workers.
4:30 p.m.
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
As I mentioned, I was. I'm located here in Ottawa, and it's easy for the various departments to contact me for that analysis. I have a file here of numerous pieces of paper, an analysis that I had to go through with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
4:30 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Bombardier Inc.
If memory serves me, Mr. Cardin, we were consulted twice. The first time, the approach was rather general. We were asked to give our view point on a possible free trade agreement. The second time, it seem to recall that there was about our concerns. We did have an opportunity to express them. There was exactly the ones I mentioned here earlier.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Most of you spoke about studies that you conducted or to which you had access. I'd like to know from those who were not consulted whether studies were conducted in their sector of activity in order to determine the consequence of such of agreement. Moreover, I'd like to know whether in the case of people who were consulted, the government told them about relatively advanced studies indicating whether the consequences would be positive or negative.
4:30 p.m.
President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation
We've had no prior consultation with the government on this trade agreement. We were aware during the transition of government that the EFTA agreement was going on, and we put forward our concerns regarding that deal. Since then the committee we sat on from the shipbuilding industry has been disbanded. There's been absolutely no consultation from our side on the Korea-Canada free trade agreement.
4:30 p.m.
Political Advisor, Manufacturing Sector, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
The same is true for us. As I said at the outset, we would have liked to have seen a new type of agreement, but also a new type of management applied to these agreements. Indeed, when the previous government was in power, the process was essentially the same. Now, the same process is being repeated. Moreover, if I understand correctly, the promise that had been made during the election campaign, to the effect that the agreements would be submitted to the House of Commons, will not be respected, at least with regard to the intent that had been expressed.
Given these conditions, we are doubly disappointed.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
You represent over 550,000 workers. You also know that the loss of some 30,000 jobs in a short period of time leads to consequences. The workers you represent are highly diversified, and I imagine that you would not necessarily have the resources necessary to conduct studies on each of the sectors. Moreover, in the sectors concerned, the large corporations involved are not in a position to conduct these analyses either, but what about sectoral associations?
4:35 p.m.
Political Advisor, Manufacturing Sector, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
No sectoral study has been conducted, except in the case of the Canadian auto workers. That sector is located mainly in Ontario. The impact for Quebec would not be as significant as it would be for the auto parts sector. The people from that union to whom we talk anticipate rather direct consequences for the auto parts industry.
4:35 p.m.
Political Advisor, Manufacturing Sector, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Yes.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Mr. Haynal, you talked about innovation, which is very important insofar as it enables technological progress and different ways of manufacturing products. Mr. Laliberté and Mr. MacPherson, on the other hand, talked about rules concerning employment; working conditions, social conditions, the environment. Those are important issues.
We are talking about innovation, social or environmental problems, and the fact remains that the situation is not necessarily fair for everyone. Natural resources will be accessible—and there are world markets—to everyone at some point or other, as are human resources and the ability to innovate.
In the final analysis, what we are talking about today is the rather unbridled race of major corporations who want to obtain the biggest market share, the most wealth on a global scale. When it comes to the social aspect, wages and the environment, that will be achieved eventually. My viewpoint may be a bit philosophical, but I think that the current race seeks to benefit the most from various deficiencies.
There is no doubt that in Canada, there could be consultation, analyses and prioritization. Indeed, the sectors are different. Some will end up winners but others will lose out. In this committee, how could we manage to determine whether the treaty will be generally profitable for Canada and Quebec? Do you have any recommendations in that regard?
4:35 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Bombardier Inc.
I made a recommendation earlier during my comments. The object of a negotiation is precisely to arrive at a point where both parties and their demands are satisfied.
As an employer in Canada and Quebec, what we seek is a level playing field. To achieve that, there are two possible means: negotiation of some sort of free trade agreement or whatever kind of agreement that satisfies our demand for free access on the one hand, and on the other hand, the establishment of a national policy that seeks to ensure that Canadian companies and workers have an opportunity to sell their products in Canada on an equal footing with foreign competitors. That is what I would recommend to this committee, sir.
4:35 p.m.
Political Advisor, Manufacturing Sector, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
With your permission, I would like to add something. With regard to the rules about public procurement, you talk about a level playing field and transparency. For our part, we also ask that the rights of workers be taken into consideration explicitly. The trading partners with whom we decide to establish privileged relations should share a certain vision of the social objectives that underlie all this. We have been saying this for years and we will continue to say it. We think the notion of using trade to try to improve living conditions and social conditions more directly is not that far-fetched. Of course, it goes beyond the rather narrow framework of tariff and non-tariff barriers and so forth.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Don't worry and don't give up hope; there are people who hear you.
Are there any other comments? Do we have any time left, Mr. Chairman?
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I'd like to apologize to the witnesses for my tardiness. As Mr. MacPherson knows, travelling from British Columbia to Ottawa sometimes means that we arrive late. I'm sorry if you might have to repeat your presentations to a certain extent.
Mr. MacPherson, I'd like to start with you. You may have covered this in your presentation. If so, I apologize. I'd like you set out what you think the impact of the current configuration of the Canada-South Korea trade agreement would be on shipbuilding and on the ship maintenance industry in British Columbia.
4:40 p.m.
President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation
We're looking at this as just another nail in the coffin for an industry that's been struggling for the last 30 or 40 years in this country because of a lack of true, clear policy for the industry.
The criminal part of this whole agreement and of the agreements that have already been done, in my view, is that we're setting up trade agreements with countries that have already done what we have not done: they've set forth an avenue to protect their industries, whether it's the shipbuilding industry, the manufacturing industry, or agriculture. They've structured themselves so that they have a protective nature.
Canada, for whatever reason, has decided it doesn't want to go down that path. We're still covered by three oceans, as I said in my presentation. We have more water than land. We have no infrastructure to protect that. If we don't find a way, before we sign these trade agreements, to hang on to this industry and protect it in the future, there'll be no industry left to worry about. As I said, all of our vessels will have to go offshore for repair and refit, and we won't have to worry about building, because there'll be no industry left to build.
If we look at the industry today, we're a third of the size we could be, as I said in my presentation. We're not really a growing industry. We're a shrinking industry because of policy that's been put forth and policy that's out there. There's far too much grey hair in this industry. If we don't find a way to get young people back into this industry and get the apprenticeships and training going, there'll be nothing left in a few short years.
I see this agreement as nothing but bad news for the industry I come from and represent. Minister Tobin had us going down the right path. We were headed in the right direction to put a policy agreement together for the industry that would take it into the future. But for whatever reason, that's been stopped.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
To what extent is there support in South Korea for the shipbuilding industry? To what extent does the government actually provide support, that kind of planning and policy...?
4:40 p.m.
President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation
As far as we're aware, the subsidy in the industry in Korea has been as high as 30%. It could be higher in other areas. The massive amount of money the government has put into this industry in Korea in the last seven or eight decades is the difference when we look at Korea.
If we look at the United States, they have the Jones Act. If you look at EFTA, they have been supported all the way through. The European nations have supported their industry. Every maritime nation in the world has protected its industry, except Canada.
We're saying that if we're going to sign these agreements.... I'm not in disagreement with other people around the table that these agreements will have to be signed one day, but before we do that, we need to look at the industries we have that are going to be hurt. Is there a way to protect them, and is there a way to do something that takes them into the future? We believe that there is, and we believe that this is a strategic industry.
We disagree strongly with what John Manley said during all the years he was industry minister, which was that this is a sunset industry. It's not. It's a sunrise industry. All it needs is the conviction of the politicians in Ottawa to come together with the industry to make this industry move forward.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So what you're saying is that Canada has the longest coastline in the world by far, two or three times longer than the second or third longest coastline nations, and yet compared to EFTA, compared to the United States, compared to South Korea, we've had very little public policy to actually support our shipbuilding industry and our ship maintenance industries.
