International Trade Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Alex Neve]

No, we wouldn't. Our experience and our documentation are that those numbers have gone up and they've gone down and they've gone up and they've gone down. But in the long term, even in the medium term, we haven't seen a significant trend that would lead us to the conclusion that it has become safer to be a trade unionist in Colombia.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Why do you disagree with Mr. Mejia's study? I want you to explain, because Mr. Mejia practically had us convinced of the miraculous findings of his study. Why do you have doubts? Why do disagree with him? He was not very happy when we tried to criticize his methodology. So there is something there. Could you elaborate and shed some light on the situation or give us some insight into Mr. Mejia's remarks to the members?

[Alex Neve]

Unfortunately I wasn't here, and I have not read his study. So I guess I can't provide information at that level.

I would be more than pleased, though—I assume the study is publicly available—to provide follow-up information to the committee. I think, amongst other things, questions about methodology and sources of information are key.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yes.

[Alex Neve]

Professor Mejía, as I understand it, is an economist; he's not a human rights expert. So there's a question about his expertise and what he did or did not bring into his analysis and work as a result.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

There is something that concerns me. There is talk of numerous union member murders. When you have a murder, you have a murderer. We often hear that the Colombian government is improving and that, to quote my colleague, Mr. Keddy, it is heading in the right direction. What happens to the murderers? Do they appear before a judge? Are they arrested?

[Alex Neve]

As an overall proposition, impunity continues to be the norm in Colombia for human rights violations, be it against trade unionists, human rights defenders, indigenous leaders, right across the board. There are, from time to time, a few high-profile cases where action is taken, usually because there's extreme international pressure.

I referred, for instance, to the “parapolitics” scandal that's happening right now. It's a huge story in Colombia. It's in the news all the time and is being watched very carefully. But even there, there's paramilitary and government action against the judges and the lawyers who are trying to work to make sure that scandal gets properly investigated and people are brought to justice. They are facing threats and obstruction in their work.

So we have far to go before we can confidently say that justice and not impunity is the norm in the face of human rights violations. And that, we would suggest, is one of the key things we want to start seeing greater confidence about before we think about deepening a trade deal that may put people at risk of increased human rights violations without a parallel prospect of increased justice.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You are Canadian?

[Alex Neve]

Yes, I am.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

As a Canadian, how would you like seeing your government do business with a country such as Colombia, in terms of business transactions and signing free trade agreements? What do you think about that?

[Alex Neve]

I think we have a tremendous opportunity as a nation to demonstrate real leadership on this important front of human rights and trade. It's not that we, as a nation, want to or should in any way turn away from trade. But we should absolutely be turning away to trade that does the best possible job of protecting human rights by carrying out a human rights impact assessment and demonstrating to the world that that's the kind of trade we believe in and that's the kind of trade policy we're going to stand for. That's the kind of Canada I would like to see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you. Good wrap.

Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Neve, thank you. Welcome.

Over the past number of years, since 2002, trade between Colombia and western countries has increased to the level it is today. At the same time that an association with a number of countries outside of Colombia has been going on, we've seen significant improvements in human rights, in the decrease in murders, the decrease in attacks on trade unionists, etc.

Do you think there's a ghost of a chance that this stronger association through trade with other countries like ours around the world has had any influence on those improvements? Do you think we've had any influence on Colombia? Do you think the Government of Colombia has realized that if they're to build their economy, they have to rely on trade with nations around the world, so they'd better clean up their act so that nations around the world will want to trade with them?

Do you think there's a possibility that this may have been a thought?

[Alex Neve]

I think our concern is that the degree to which that may be happening has brought benefit to a limited few and has at the same time increased vulnerability and risks to marginalized groups--

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

With all due respect, Mr. Neve, the homicides have gone down. Education has improved considerably. It appears that there has been significant improvement in most of the areas we're concerned about. There's still a long way to go. If you had a magic wand, or if Mr. Julian had a magic wand... If we had a magic wand, we would wave it and we'd have a perfect world, but we don't. Progress is made in incremental steps, and we are all heading toward the same goal.

So if Canada were to back away from this free trade agreement, in which we have an opportunity to perhaps increase our influence with Colombia, as a country that respects human rights... If we were to back away for further study... We've been on this for a year and a half now. There are about half a dozen other countries that are anxious to sign agreements with Colombia that don't even have the willingness to sign what we're going to sign with them with regard to labour contracts, side agreements, and the environment. If we were to back away for further study--we could go on for another two years, given how long we've been doing it now--our seats are going to be filled by those other countries as far as free trade with Colombia is concerned. There may not be a chance to come back to the table to negotiate to try to get a free trade agreement because there may not be any room.

Do you think it's morally smart to think that we should walk away now and not give Colombia the benefit of the influence we can have by signing this free trade agreement, no matter how small the steps are for the improvement we can maybe offer through our influence? Do you think it's morally smart to do that?

[Alex Neve]

We have never said we should walk away. We have said let's pause, and get the human rights right and--

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

But, Mr. Neve, with due respect, we've been on this for a year and a half now. It is possible, given the determination of the parties opposite--some of them, half of them--that we could be on this for another two years. We would be depriving Colombia for that time of the influence we possibly could have on how their government would continue to try to make improvements. In the meantime, as I said, our seats at the table may be filled by half a dozen other countries, to the point where we're not needed any more. That's what I'm saying.

[Alex Neve]

I think the solution is very clear, then: agree to carry out the human rights impact assessment. We didn't just raise this recommendation today. We first put this issue in front of the government three years ago. This committee highlighted the need for a human rights impact assessment—I believe all members of the committee at the time—a year and a half ago. It's not that we're now coming to the table late in the process to say let's delay and then go forward with this.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

But respectfully, this labour cooperation agreement and the environment agreement are the strongest agreements we've ever signed with any nation. That's a huge step for Canada to take in negotiating a free trade agreement. It's a good step. It may be a smaller step than what you want, in your view, and maybe in Mr. Julian's and Mr. Guimond's, but it is a positive step. I believe that positive step could be lost if we were to walk away from the table and maybe come back in a couple of years, or even a year from now, to find that others have taken our seats.

[Alex Neve]

I wouldn't dare speak for the Colombian government, but it certainly has been my sense throughout this whole process that the Colombian government is very intent on having a deal with Canada. I don't know that the risk of them losing interest and focusing on other countries would be a very real one.

Again, I come back to the fact that the answers to concerns about ongoing and further delay are, in my mind, very obvious: get the human rights impact assessment up and running. Sadly, it's something that didn't happen two, two and a half, or three years ago.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Could we not get to the agreement now and work on the other—

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Cannan, do you want to have one quick question, now that Mr. Harris has used up more than half your time?

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

One quick one, if you want to, Mr. Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

It's good to see you again.

My wife and I had a chance to work in Brazil at an orphanage and to understand the impact of human rights and economic development. Kids were left abandoned on the streets and shopkeepers were shooting them in the stores. It was horrific. We've come a long way around the world. There is a lot of improvement to be done. Having the chance to go to Colombia...and now I'm only limited to one question.

Looking back, I think you were at the breakfast on Tuesday, when AFN Chief Shawn Atleo was there.