Evidence of meeting #13 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yessika Hoyos Morales  Lawyer, Human Rights, As an Individual
Gauri Sreenivasan  Policy Coordinator, International Trade, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
Carlo Dade  Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)
Jean-Michel Laurin  Vice-President, Global Business Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Order, please.

We did some committee business prior to the opening of the meeting. We have concluded that we will have some additional comments on our procurement report. I have distributed to all the committee members a letter that had been received by Mr. Brison. I think it's worth looking at, so we'll defer any further discussion today of the U.S.-Canada procurement report until Tuesday, to see if anybody has any comments on that or wants to conclude it.

That does save us a bit of time, and that's a good thing, because we're a little late getting started. I would like each of our witnesses today to have an opportunity to speak, so that's going to eat some time.

To provide adequate questioning, we will make this the sole item on our agenda today, allow each of our guests to speak for 10 minutes maximum on opening, and go right to five o'clock with questions.

Monsieur Laforest.

April 29th, 2010 / 3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, there is a problem with the translation.

I have a question about the witnesses who are here today and the list of witnesses.

We know that people want to testify and to express their views on the bill on the free trade agreement with Colombia. A number of people have made requests to the clerk. We have not discussed the schedule of the various witnesses. Do witnesses suggested by members have priority over those who contact the clerk directly? Does everyone have the same priority? The fundamental question is: are all witnesses who wish to be heard able to speak?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Yes and no.

Yes, the lists submitted by members do get higher priority on the basis that these are people we want to hear from. We have generally established on this committee that the clerk will deal with these requests. This case is a bit unusual, because we have been studying this bill on and off for quite some time and have heard many of the witnesses.

To answer your first question, Monsieur Laforest, yes, we do give some priority to members' lists, because those are people we want to hear from, and that's obvious by the submission of those names by members of Parliament.

We also have people who approach the committee on their own. We have no particular way of knowing, in some cases, if these people have any expertise at all or just want a free trip to Ottawa and be able to put on their resumé that they were an expert witness.

It's not as if we've put an ad in the paper asking for anybody who wants to comment on this. No; if there are people whom we'd like to have appear before the committee, with reasonable credentials and something to say, particularly if it's something we haven't heard before, they're welcome to come. But we're not going to go on ad nauseam hearing from everybody who's got an opinion. We are interested in seeking information, particularly new information, from people who have a basis of understanding of the subject.

That's it in a nutshell. At this point we haven't been exclusive in any way. The clerk has been quite busy trying to line people up. I'm grateful to the people today, and I should say, in their defence, that in some cases it's been on quite short notice.

To the witnesses, thank you for your patience and being able to come on short notice to appear today.

So we're at it, and we've got another week or two to fit in witnesses. If there's somebody you particularly want, I would let the clerk know.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Would it be possible for the clerk to provide us with the list of all those who have asked to testify directly with the clerk, just so that we can get organized?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Sure. We can do that right now.

Do you have that with you?

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Could we get them as the requests are received?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I think that's quite a reasonable way to approach it. If there are some on this list that you particularly want, tick them off and let us know, because I don't think we're going to be able to accommodate everyone.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I have no other questions. Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll be here until Christmas if we try to accommodate every union in Canada.

3:40 p.m.

An hon. member

[Inaudible--Editor]

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

You deserved it; you deserved it.

No, no, we've done enough of that.

Yes, Mr. Julian.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, with due respect, I see a list of very credible witnesses who have applied to this committee. Given the scope and the quality of the people who have requested to come before this committee, I would respectfully say that your comments about somebody wanting a free trip to Ottawa are a bit misplaced. These are very credible people.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

There you go.

Mr. Brison.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I have two comments.

One, I think it's important that we hear from reasonably balanced groupings of those people who are opposed and those in favour. What I have found in previous testimony is that those in favour typically make fairly similar cases and those opposed make similar cases. To the extent that we identify those who can best synthesize those arguments, I think that is very effective, particularly given the number of witnesses we've heard.

Secondly, I want to commend you, or the clerk, or whoever made the decision, for having a balance of both at committee. Sometimes at committee we've had one day where it is all one side, and then another day you have all of another side. I think it's nice to have a balanced approach, such that we can.

I think today, members, the degree to which we can have dialogue, discussion, and, to whatever extent, a little debate between members on specific points, I certainly would appreciate, and I think that would inform all our decisions.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Well, I thank you, Mr. Brison, for--as usual--saying very diplomatically what I just said.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

But much better.

3:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Much better, yes, that's right.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

And without having insulted any particular witnesses.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Or voters; but they ain't voting for me anyway.

With that, we are going to welcome our witnesses today. We have, from FOCAL, the Canadian Foundation for the Americas, Carlo Dade, executive director, who's been with us before.

Thank you for coming back.

We also have, from the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, Jean-Michel Laurin, who's vice-president of global business policy; from the Canadian Council for International Co-operation, again joining us is Gauri Sreenivasan, the policy coordinator, international trade; and appearing en español is Yessika Hoyos Morales, a human rights lawyer, I believe from Colombia.

We're going to ask each of our witnesses to begin with a brief opening statement—those we have heard before will be more brief—and having heard their opening statements, we'll go to the questioning.

Before we start, let me remind everybody that if you want to listen in English, you're on channel one; French is on channel two; and Spanish is on channel three.

With that, perhaps I'll start with our Spanish visitor.

Ms. Morales, would you like to begin?

3:45 p.m.

Yessika Hoyos Morales Lawyer, Human Rights, As an Individual

Thank you. You are very kind.

Good afternoon, everyone. I am very grateful to have this opportunity to address you all.

In Colombia, the human rights crisis is ongoing and improvements are a long way off. Fundamental rights and freedoms are increasingly restricted in the context of a deinstitutionalization of the democratic state, as shown in different areas. Attacks against the civilian population and threats against trade unionists and against defenders of human rights and social organizations reveal the lie that demobilization of paramilitary groups has occurred.

Different human rights reports have shown that paramilitary structures are still in place in 293 Colombian municipalities. Apparently they just changed names.

In large cities in the country, the homicide rate has grown at an alarming pace. The city of Medellín offers the best example that the paramilitary has not been dismantled. And in this regard, with all due respect, I can tell you that you may consult a report written by Human Rights Watch that was published in February of this year.

Extrajudicial executions by the national army have grown a lot, achieved through what is called “false positives”. Last year, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions paid a visit to our country and at that time he said,

The sheer number of cases, their geographic spread, and the diversity of military units implicated, indicate that these killings were carried out in a more or less systematic fashion by significant elements within the military.

The office of the public prosecutor reported that as at September 2009, they had been investigating 2,077 such executions. People were killed by the national army, by people who were supposed to protect them.

While the government has announced an effort to protect trade unionists and human rights people, there is a contradiction in reality. There is a hostile environment to defend human rights in Colombia. The government is still declaring itself in a very harsh way against members of the Supreme Court of Justice, members of the unions, and against our work as human rights defenders.

Labour conflicts are considered a public matter and different organizations act illegally against trade unionists, as we have proven. One of the most incredible criminal actions against people in Colombia is by what they call the Administrative Department of Security, DAS, the state intelligence army that reports directly to the president of the republic.

DAS carried out, with the full participation and knowledge of its directors, a criminal hunt against all those who opposed current government policies. The DAS illegally created a special group within the entity. They prosecuted local targets, intercepted phone calls, and detected routes that people took to go to different places. They even took keys belonging to one of the human rights defenders, and they took film and photographic records of places and people, including children. They threatened all those people, like journalist Claudia Julieta Duque, who got a phone call saying they were going to slaughter her little daughter. The inter-American human rights commission, the special rapporteur of the United Nations--they were all victims of these attacks and persecution.

The program meant to protect trade unionists and human rights observers was used by DAS to achieve its goals. Through the program that they conceived to protect us, they got all kinds of information and intelligence from us.

All these people have been the object of intelligence activities, to get in their databases. What they do is they use this information to prepare lists. Mr. Jorge Noguera Cotes gave this information to the paramilitary so they would threaten, displace, and kill all those people.

Jorge Noguera is today on trial because of this before the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court has also been the victim of persecution and accusations by the government. It has been made very clear by all the declarants that the final recipient of that strategic intelligence was the president himself, Alvaro Uribe Velez.

In spite of all the efforts made to deny this violence against trade unionists, this remains the same: there were 707 violations of the rights to life, freedom, and integrity of union workers.

I would like to quote a portion of the annual report by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, dated March 4, 2010. She states:

Of particular concern are the threats against and killings of trade union members, journalists, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) persons and those who promote their rights. Similar concern is held for those advocating for the ethno-territorial rights of Afro-Colombian communities and indigenous peoples.

Crimes against trade unionists have given no results. They haven't had any positive results in the investigation of all these crimes. The state has implemented a series of standards that are not abided by. Sentences that they show as any progress in justice can be questioned. For example, when we did the investigation into my father's killing, the sentence they gave is a sentence against a police officer who, two years before, had been killed in a non-related matter.

Those investigations are not bringing out the truth. They proceed with investigations, but they're only looking for reasons like crimes of passion. They are not looking for intellectual perpetrators, which is the only way to solve this.

I have to reiterate that the Colombian government has not been transparent in dealing with these issues. They are trying to create their own international image instead of trying to really protect the trade unionists. All this, among other things, has made Colombia have one of the lowest rates of trade union participation on the continent. We have been losing members. For example, between 2002 and 2009, 230 of these organizations were denied the right to become unions. There are 53,000 fewer people who are members of the unions as opposed to the number in 2002. We went from 863,000 members to 810,000 in 2010, and this goes against what the government says.

I know that some of the members of professional organizations in Colombia have said that Colombia wants the treaty adopted. What I can tell you is that the Afro-Colombian organizations, the three union organizations in my country, human rights people, are asking you not to approve that treaty with a government that's still violating human rights.

We ask you to please conduct a transparent and impartial analysis so that you will see what impact this treaty will have on my country. We do not believe in any study that is conducted by any government. We ask that a study be conducted by an independent entity.

You are the ones who decide who to listen to. I trust that you will listen to the victims, social organizations, defenders of human rights, and that you will defend and protect life.

Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Ms. Morales.

We'll move to Ms. Gauri Sreenivasan from the Canadian Council for International Co-operation.

3:55 p.m.

Gauri Sreenivasan Policy Coordinator, International Trade, Canadian Council for International Co-operation

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity.

Gerry Barr, president and CEO of CCIC, sends his regrets. We were given barely 24 hours' notice, making it impossible, unfortunately, for him to change his schedule or agenda.

I think it's important to flag at the outset that there is tremendous interest on the part of many civil society and human rights organizations to appear to discuss Bill C-2 and to propose amendments, which we have yet to see on paper. Most are still awaiting news of possible hearings.

The process to inform people with such short notice does present great problems. I think we need to be fair so that groups can see that there is in fact an openness to participation and debate, as has been promised in the House.

CCIC believes very strongly in the potential for trade to lift people out of poverty, if it brings benefits to vulnerable populations and allows states that are willing to promote development outcomes and protect the environment. But trade can also lead to dislocation of marginal groups, and it can lead to heightened exploitation or violence. There are no automatic relationships. The details of the agreement matter, and the local context matters.

As you know, there has been a lot of public controversy about this agreement because of the human rights crisis in Colombia. In our view, a country with such deep levels of violence does provide special obligations of due diligence for Canada as it seeks to promote increased trade and investment.

I want to speak to three areas today. I want to provide a reminder of some of the key human rights concerns. I want to highlight from an analysis of the actual text of the agreement, which is now out and which CCIC commissioned with legal experts. This is not the theory of trade, but an analysis of the actual trade deal on the table. And I thirdly want to speak to the issue of a human rights impact assessment, which is such an important area.

I am going to spend a little less time on the human rights concerns, because I think Yessika has just given a very moving and important overview.

There is a lot of different conflicting information out there on the human rights situation. In the end, I think members of Parliament have to decide which sources of information you are going to listen to.

We focus ourselves on independent and highly respected human rights organizations and on those working with the most marginalized in Colombia. From these sources, the picture is pretty clear. There are improvements in the area of kidnappings, and there's an increased feeling of personal security in major urban centres in Colombia. But there are continued and unacceptably high levels of violence and violations, importantly violence in which the Colombian state is deeply implicated. Yessika has spoken very well on the issue of paramilitary violence.

I think it's important to flag. We have noticed a lot of discussion in the House and in the media about violence in Colombia just being about the drug economy and among drug lords. What is not being underscored enough--and this is why I think you need to hear from Colombian human rights activists--is how the government of Colombia itself is deeply linked to that violence, and it's not in a minor way.

Yessika has just highlighted the frightful revelations of the last year in which the president's intelligence unit, the DAS, is now clearly exposed as having masterminded massive illegal surveillance, which included Supreme Court magistrates and human rights organizations. The illegally obtained information was used to provide hit lists to the paramilitary to attack trade unionists, human rights defenders, who were attacked, murdered, and whose children were threatened. The direct linkage between the role that the state was playing to develop information to give to paramilitary, who in turn attacked civil society organizations in Colombia, provides an important reminder of the nature of the violence. It is not just fights among drug lords.

I think it is also important to underscore that the rise of paramilitary activity has coincided with significant increases in the rates of internal displacement. Since 1985, it is estimated that there are now 4.9 million people displaced in Colombia, second only to Sudan.

Why is that issue important for the trade agreement? It is key because violence and displacement are directly linked to the struggle for control over land, both for narco-trafficking and for the development of natural resources, including minerals, oil, and gas. Canadian companies are heavily involved in these sectors. There is a direct and reasonable concern about the likelihood of even unknowing Canadian corporate complicity in the occupation of land that was obtained through violence.

I want to quote from the UN special rapporteur for internally displaced peoples, who noted that there is a widespread perception among displaced people in Colombia that “while displacement may originally have been caused by armed conflict, the taking over of their lands by large corporations is at least a side effect, if not part of a policy of forced displacement”.

So I think we have a lot of reasons to be concerned about the linkages between violence and the state, between violence and displacement over land and resources, and then the question of who is going to access those lands and resources for profit, which is the direct question of commercial relationships for Canada.

Let me talk about the trade deal on the table now. In response to some of these concerns, the Canada-Colombia trade deal has been described and explained to Canadians as a different kind of trade deal, as a deal that has top-notch safeguards and that addresses human rights. So that is why we waited for the release of the text and we undertook collaboratively with legal experts the job of examining the text.

What happens when you layer this particular trade deal onto the context of violence? It is not to say that the trade deal causes all the problems, which existed before the trade deal even arrived. The question is what is the likely impact of the trade deal in this context?

In our view, from looking at the agreement as negotiated, the deal turns out to be actually a fairly typical and aggressive market access agreement. The safeguards in the side agreements are quite ineffective.

Let me go over a couple of examples. On the substantive trade measures, there's a very important investment chapter, which provides Canadian investors in mining, oil, and gas with unprecedented new powers of enforcement in the Colombian context. These kinds of protections didn't exist in the bilateral relationship between Canada and Colombia before: new powers of enforcement to secure access to resources that would discourage contestation of their projects despite the highly contested nature of land in Colombia.

In our view, the arrival of those new powers of enforcement can act, and would act, as an anti-democratic force in Colombia inasmuch as they it provide a disincentive to strengthen human rights laws--for example, if the Colombian government wanted to introduce regulations to deal with the illegal seizure of lands once investors were already on.

Professor Penelope Simons from the University of Ottawa, whom I really encourage you to bring as an expert on commerce and investment, has underscored that the text also has no obligations on corporations to screen their security forces, conduct human rights training, or disclose any payments to the host-state government or to guerrilla forces.

There are no provisions currently existing in Canada, as this committee recommended in 2008, requiring the home state--that would be Canada--to create a right of action or to ensure access to our courts for victims of human rights violations that were committed by our corporate nationals. So the investment treaty focuses on investor protections and provides heavy threats of enforcement to secure their operations and no corresponding binding responsibilities and no recourse for victims who feel aggrieved by corporate actions in Colombia.

We talked briefly about the agriculture market access session. Again, the CCIC brief, which is in front of you--I'm happy to take more questions on that later--shows that a very aggressive market liberalization of Colombian agricultural sectors would accelerate displacement in vulnerable communities. We looked specifically at the areas of grains, wheat in particular, and pork, because a lot of studies have been done on the impact of the U.S. deal in these areas, and our products trade very competitively with the U.S. in those areas.

Based on Colombian analysis, the Canadian FTA would likely have a very negative impact on production and jobs in Colombia, undermining, for example, the livelihoods of about 12,000 local wheat farmers and possibly eliminating up to 39,000 jobs in the informal pork sector. The deal, interestingly, virtually eliminates the Colombian government's access to safeguard measures to protect farmers' livelihoods and incomes. In our analysis there is no evidence of a human rights friendly or developmentally friendly agreement here.

The side accords have been widely touted, but are they effective? Again, I would encourage you to call Steven Shrybman, a well-known environmental lawyer who has done the legal analysis of this. In a word, the environmental side deal you have before you in the Colombian agreement doesn't even match NAFTA standards. It may provide a legal disincentive to raise environmental standards. The labour side accord offers no independent means of enforcement for labour unions who are raising complaints.

The whole mechanism of the labour side accord, which has been pitched as a safeguard for violation, relies exclusively on the goodwill of the governments, the two parties with the least incentive to air dirty laundry, to enforce the accord.

Even if either of the governments decides to enforce and to send a complaint up to an arbitration panel, at best it can provide fines, which in fact would be resources to be fed back into programs likely run by the Colombian government. Unions in Canada and Colombia have denounced this kind of side accord as a response to the context in Colombia. In other places or other countries there may be a less severe labour scenario and the opportunity to propose papers and have a government hear your complaints may be an issue, but in Colombia this kind of side accord, which provides no independent recourse for unionists, is not seen as a safeguard.

Let me come to the last area, because it is really important. That is the question of a human rights impact assessment. The initial scoping study that we did of the agreement has led to a very strong demand from civil society, which has been taken up by Parliament, for an independent human rights impact assessment to check the validity of the safeguards and to check the nature of the provisions in the agreement before proceeding with implementation.

It's really important for Canada to do this due diligence. Other countries, such as the U.S., Belgium, and Norway, are approaching their trade deals with Colombia slowly and looking much more in depth at human rights issues. I noticed Mike Michaud, a Democrat in the U.S. Congress, just sent a letter about his concerns about the Canadian deal.

With the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement and with recent initiatives, human rights impact assessments have really moved into the mainstream of the debate on trade, and this is a really positive thing. The challenge now is to do the process credibly. What is a credible human rights impact assessment? Civil society has spoken to the need, at a minimum, for an independent assessment to be undertaken on the deal, and for the results of the assessment to be addressed before implementation. This was also the demand of this committee in 2008.

We actually await more details and a copy of the proposal as presented by the Liberal Party. We've seen the transcript in Hansard that has been accepted by the government. That's all we have to date.

I want to offer some initial comments on that. We would be interested to understand if that is an amendment that is proposed to be added to the agreement itself, to Bill C-2. How would that work legally?

As it currently stands, although the idea of the human rights impact assessment is so dear and important, the current proposal lacks credibility. There are three key issues that I would like us to discuss.

The assessment has to be prior. A human rights approach demands that we seek to avoid measures that can lead to human rights violations before they happen. It's true that it's more challenging than an assessment after the fact, but there are a lot of precedents. Think of environmental impact assessments. Think of the European Union's commitment to sustainable impact assessments. These are all done as prior impact assessments, and it's what speaks to the need and importance for Canada of avoiding violations, not documenting them after they've happened. A prior assessment is the first key thing.

Second, the assessment has to be independent. It must be at arm's length from those making decisions on the trade agreement. It has to be undertaken by a team with human rights and trade expertise and employ a human rights methodology that is transparent, consultative, and participatory.

Again, this is not a weird, outrageous claim. Look at the European Union; for its social impact assessment, it commissions independent teams that report back to an oversight body. Their model may not necessarily be ideal, but the important principle is respected. It's not acceptable for government officials who are committed to the trade deal that they have negotiated to assess the impacts. This is doubly true in Colombia, where government has shown a marked aversion to those who report on human rights issues and has attacked them.

The third issue is that the assessment has to be oriented to results and action. It needs to have precise and directed conclusions and recommendations for actions. There has to be a commitment in the amendment that actions and recommendations would be acted upon, rather than a commitment to table a report that would just be read and put on the shelf.

Speaking to the important principle, in our view the current proposal is too unwieldy. It actually claims to address the entire trade deal and claims it will document all impacts. It's not practical. We think it would be more realistic to identify specific aspects and provisions that Canada is concerned about, look at the impacts of those specific measures, make recommendations on them, and then commit to taking action on those recommendations. It has to be done empirically; it can't be done by sitting at a desk and assuming what the impacts are.

To sum up, we need a commitment in principle to act on the human rights impacts recommendations. We need results and action, we need the assessment to be prior, and we need the assessment to be done independently, and those are three key issues that we don't see right now.

I'd urge you to invite legal expert Dr. James Harrison of the U.K. to appear before you as a witness. He set out a series of important benchmarks to assess human rights impact assessments.

I think with the discussion of assessment, we have an opportunity to—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I'm sorry, Ms. Sreenivasan, that's 15 minutes. I offered you 10, and it's now 15 minutes. Please wrap it up.

4:10 p.m.

Policy Coordinator, International Trade, Canadian Council for International Co-operation

Gauri Sreenivasan

It's my last sentence. I do appreciate the extra time.

I just wanted to say that I think the notion and the proposal offer us an important opportunity to set a really historic precedent, but the damage from a non-credible process is high, so let's get it right.

Thank you.