Evidence of meeting #4 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carl Grenier  As an Individual
Omar Hammoud  President and Chief Executive Officer, APG-Neuros Inc.
Shirley-Ann George  Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

On the timeline issue, the provinces reached an agreement in July, the proposal was taken to D.C. in August, negotiations didn't start until October, and the Americans dragged the puck until February, almost 12 months after the February 17 date last year when the Buy American provisions came in and when most of the stimulus had been spent. In fact, in terms of stimulus packages, this was the motherlode of stimulus packages, and with America facing a deficit of $1.6 trillion, anything to come after it is going to pale in comparison.

Given that this exemption really only applies to this stimulus package, and given that we did not even attain exemptions against Buy American provisions in the Jobs for Main Street Act, there are going to be Buy American provisions on an ongoing basis. Do you have concerns that we will see more extended negotiations every time American legislation comes forth with Buy American provisions, that we will see the types of delays and the types of negotiations that will drag the puck and reduce the capacity of Canadian companies to participate?

The government has said that there is some sort of fast track on future negotiations. That's just not the case. There is nothing guaranteed in terms of future negotiations. Shouldn't the government have negotiated a streamlined process to avoid this type of delay and the loss of Canadian jobs for future packages?

4:45 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Shirley-Ann George

We're very concerned about protectionism in the United States and this popping up in future bills, and we're seeing it, unfortunately, on a regular basis. So your concern is absolutely valid--

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

But do you agree with me that there's nothing in this Buy American deal that prevents us from going through this entire exercise every single time?

4:45 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Shirley-Ann George

What's in the deal is just a fast track process that we'll get together more quickly. There is no guarantee. Unfortunately, to get such a guarantee would have required that this go before Congress and be passed in Congress and there--

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Ms. George, on one point, you used a very specific trade term: “fast track”. Respectfully, I'd urge you not to use that because in trade talk it means something that is quite specific in terms of a capacity of the executive to act. The minister used the same thing, I think, the same term, “fast track”. There's no “fast track” in this bill, but I appreciate your intervention.

Do any of the other...?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I'm sorry, but we won't have time for more. That's already seven minutes.

We're going to have a five-minute round.

Monsieur Guimond, cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

March 18th, 2010 / 4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Grenier, you have dropped a bombshell with your very clear statement. I also appreciate the fact that you put it in a historical context. It is important to be able to do that in order to help us understand.

Let us talk about consequences. Can you tell us again what they will be? Given this fait accompli, will there be ways to repair the medium- and long-term damage?

4:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Thank you for the question.

First, it was certainly not my intention to drop a bombshell. But I did want to draw committee members' attention to the significance of this agreement that is not on the same scale as the softwood lumber agreement or the free trade agreement, for example. This problem is much more focused, but government procurement is the area that all countries protect most, especially the United States. So negotiating is very difficult.

When I said earlier that we should hold our fire until a better opportunity arises, I really meant that the solution, as I see it, in the case of government procurement, is to wait for multilateral negotiations, at the WTO, that is. But, as we know, they are in a bit of trouble at the moment.

By the way, agreement has already been reached on a new text for the WTO's Agreement on Government Procurement—the agreement will be applied, and is being applied, in the Canada-United States agreement. But there have been no negotiations on the real heart of the matter, the entities that the new agreement will cover. I feel that we should have waited for that. Unfortunately, we are out of ammunition; so what will we use when the government procurement negotiations start up again in Geneva? I do not know.

It must also be said—and I do not think that any of the previous witnesses have pointed this out, nor have I seen it in any public comments I have read—that, from the outset, in 1979, Canada protected its position by saying that, in fact, small and medium businesses could be given preference. But we have never had a program to do so here, while the United States has had one since the 1950s. We have never done that here, for government procurement.

I also wanted to raise a technical point that has come up two or three times: the threshold. The threshold that Mr. Hammoud mentioned was too high, at 7 or $8 million. The threshold—and I apologize to Ms. George—was not invented by the provinces. It was invented during the negotiations in the 1990s. It is expressed in special drawing rights, the common currency created by the International Monetary Fund. I think I recall that, at the time, it was 5 million SDRs, and it was essentially for construction projects. Clearly, none of the countries around the table—the provinces were not there at the time, for the reasons I mentioned earlier—wanted to be forced into international competitive bidding for every project, given that it is quite a cumbersome, slow and expensive process. They wanted to keep a certain proportion of the smaller projects as ones that were clearly not worth putting out to international tender. That is why the threshold is the way it is.

I very much doubt whether the threshold will go down in the future, because, after all, it is an administrative necessity. Certainly, by breaking projects into parts—which is illegal, by the way—you can keep projects that are actually above the threshold, and therefore open to foreigners, under the threshold. But that is prohibited and, given that it is, there are consequences if it happens.

As for remedies, I think that we are going to have to think about that seriously because, as I said earlier, we do not have a lot of cards left to play.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Grenier, you talked earlier about a 6% clause. I did not really understand what that was. Could you take us back to that and explain it to us clearly?

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Yes, and we have to go back a long way, to 1933. This is at the very heart of the Buy American clause, as defined by the Roosevelt administration at the time. They established three protection levels, literally in order to give American suppliers an advantage over foreign suppliers. The levels are 6%, 12% and 50%.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

They are still in effect, are they not?

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

They certainly are. The 50% level is used for military contracts. I did not mention this earlier, but the 6% and 12% levels are used depending on the project. This is the Buy American protection. In other words, if a foreign company can get over that—because it is more competitive than its American competitors—it can win a contract. Except that, with this new version of Buy American, where the iron and steel have to be manufactured in the United States, it has the same effect as a quota. It is worse than a percentage.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

That even puts limitations on the 6% clause.

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Yes, it does.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Previously, a company that bid 6% less than an American company could win the contract.

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Previously.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Previously. Now, it cannot win the contract because it does not produce things like the steel.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

There you go. Well done. You got that in.

We're going to go now to Mr. Holder to wrap it up.

Mr. Holder, let's see if we can keep it to five minutes for questions and answers, and then we'll call it a day.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

I will do my very best, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

I'd like to thank our guests for being here today. I apologize for having come in a little later due to a prior commitment. I didn't hear the testimony in advance, so I will ask some broader--but I hope pointed--questions.

I'm very compelled by some of the testimony I've heard.

Mr. Grenier, you've said a couple of times here that we're dealing with a most protectionist country. I heard Madam George say the same thing in terms of the challenges of dealing with a major player like the United States. I'd be hard pressed to suggest that they aren't very, very tough negotiators. Certainly, we'll negotiate as we all negotiate, which is in our own country's interests, so I get that.

It confused me, though, when I heard a couple of times that we should have waited for a better opportunity and that there's nothing left in our arsenal. To me, I think the whole spirit of negotiation and what this process has allowed itself to do have given us the tools for future negotiations as well, and certainly, even as this procurement arrangement becomes retired, we'll have the opportunity with the foundations laid in place. In fact, I would argue respectfully that it puts us in a better position to be able to negotiate on behalf of Canada's interests going forward. I want to make that as a statement. I think that what we've effectively done is set a precedent by putting this in place.

I would never want to challenge my good friend Mr. Brison, particularly, but I would say that one of the things I think this deal does is commit Canada and the United States to engage in expedited consultations on any matter related to government procurement. So even that reference to fast track I think is legitimate, to the extent that what it does is allow Canada and the United States to become involved immediately in terms of dealing with Buy American provisions as they would happen going forward.

Madam George, I have a question for you, if I may. It's always interesting when we have our guests and we get the different perspectives. I think that's healthy. But you're very clear that this is in the strong interests of your members. Why do you feel so adamantly, so strongly? Why is this procurement agreement so critical?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Shirley-Ann George

Many of the points that have been raised today are legitimate concerns, but I think we need to take a look at the bigger picture. This is a good agreement for Canada because, first of all, having no agreement would have been worse. The damage and the bleeding that was happening in Canadian businesses would have continued and the jobs would have been permanently lost for Canada.

We also need to continue to find ways to engage the United States. The fact that we have an agreement that will put on the table the discussions that could lead to a permanent agreement is very important. Unfortunately, in the timeframe, we couldn't get to a permanent agreement of the scope we want, so this is a step forward. It's not a great step forward. It's not a wonderful step forward. But it is an important step forward.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

You say that very firmly. Why is that? Because I look at this as a template, frankly, and this is our first deal, if you will, in terms of establishing the agreement and setting the terms of reference in place. While it's not a perfect deal--and I think we would all acknowledge that--it is important, but you feel committed to that and I'd just like to get briefly a strong sense of why you feel it's so critical.

4:55 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Shirley-Ann George

As I said, it's critical because we needed to stop the bleeding. It's critical because we needed to set the stage for this future agreement. When you're dealing with a Congress that is as protectionist as the one we have today, we aren't going to get there in a single step. This is the first step on a road.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

You have a minute.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you.

So from your standpoint on the frameworks we've established with this, do you think that sets the tone for future deals going forward in terms of procurement, Mr. Grenier?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Carl Grenier

Obviously, you know that I don't think so--