Evidence of meeting #44 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Stephenson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Michael Rooney  Director, Unites States Transboundary Affairs Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Lynda Watson  Director, North America Commercial Programs, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Laurent Cardinal  Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Good morning. Welcome to meeting number 44 of this session for the Standing Committee on International Trade.

We are pursuing our study of Canada-U.S. relations this morning and are happy to welcome our departmental officials to give us a briefing.

We have had a brief conversation about current events. We have just reviewed this CPAC-Maclean's forum that many found of interest and want to pursue it. Our goal in the short term in our continuing discussions is to visit Washington, probably within the next couple of weeks. We have initiated discussions with the embassy in Washington in that regard. To assist our background and briefing on that, we welcome today officials from the department, including the assistant deputy minister, trade policy and negotiations, Don Stephenson.

Welcome back, Mr. Stephenson.

He is joined by Laurent Cardinal, director general, North America trade policy bureau; Stéphane Jobin, director, North America policy and relations division; Lynda Watson, director of North America commercial programs; and Michael Rooney, director, United States transboundary affairs division.

We will follow our usual practice of asking Mr. Stephenson to begin with opening remarks, and then we'll turn it over to the committee members, who are at liberty to ask questions of any of our panel today.

I'll ask Mr. Stephenson to begin.

Thank you.

February 10th, 2011 / 8:55 a.m.

Don Stephenson Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I brought a lot of folks with me in case anything goes to a vote, and we have more help behind.

Thanks for the opportunity to address Canada's trade relationship with the United States, which remains still the largest trade relationship between any two countries on the planet.

Let me start by saying a few words about the overall relationship. What we share with our American neighbours is a long-standing, deep, and enviable partnership forged by shared geography, similar values, common interests, deep social, familial connections, and powerful, multi-layered economic ties.

It's an impressively wide-ranging relationship, the dynamism of which can be seen every day in our people-to-people ties, our deeply integrated economies, and government-to-government dealings in a vast number of areas, ranging from our shared environment to our space programs. Over the years, it has become a model of a relationship that works.

Canada and the United States enjoy a unique economic partnership. Since the implementation of the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement in 1989, two-way trade in goods and services has more than doubled.

In 2009, our bilateral trade in goods and services stood at close to $600 billion, with $1.6 billion worth of goods and services crossing the border every day.

Canada has traditionally run a large merchandise trade surplus with the US, most of which is attributable to our standing as the lead foreign supplier of energy to the United States.

If energy exports are excluded, our trade with the United States is roughly balanced.

As you know, millions of jobs on both sides of the border depend directly on trade between our two countries. Ultimately, our economic partnership with the US is critical to the economic prosperity and standard of living in both countries.

Given the importance of the commercial relationship to both economies and the incredible volume of goods and travellers that cross the border every day, it remains a top priority to ensure that our common borders remain secure and open to legitimate commerce and travellers.

Last Friday’s declaration on a shared vision for perimeter security and economic competitiveness, and the ensuing action plan, will play an essential part in modernizing the border to address future security and competitiveness opportunities and challenges.

As trade officials, we're often required to focus on the problems in the relationship that attract public attention. This can obscure the fact that the overall trade relationship functions smoothly. I think they refer to me in Washington as the “assistant deputy minister, trade irritants”.

A relationship with the depth, complexity, and scale of the one we enjoy with our neighbour could not realistically be completely immune to occasional divergence of views. However, the positive aspects of our relationship far outweigh the negative ones and enable the two countries to work together to overcome them.

Where problems do arise in the form of legislative and regulatory measures adopted in the U.S., Canadian exporters or exports are often not the primary target of those measures. Canada is at times side-swiped, so to speak, by actions aimed at other exporting countries. A good example would be the recent proposal for a foreign manufacturers liability and accountability act, a policy that would have created additional costs and administrative burdens for Canadian exporters but in respect of Canada was completely redundant and unnecessary.

Another important consideration is that trade barriers enacted in one country inevitably impact on producers in the other. This is a result of the growing integration of production across the border, not least because of the NAFTA. Extended supply chains increase the competitiveness of industries in both countries; however, they are also subject to unintended effects when trade-restrictive measures are undertaken.

To put a point on it, U.S. government actions affecting Canadian exports can also impact the U.S. content suppliers of those goods, and vice versa. Approximately one-third of U.S. imports from Canada go into the production of U.S. goods and services, with a similar corresponding figure for Canadian imports from the U.S. The point is we make things together for the world market.

These are some of the general messages that we include in our exchanges with U.S. government officials, decision-makers, and industry. The level of integration of our two economies is not well known in the United States. Our objective, and most of you will be thoroughly familiar with it, is to sensitize our U.S. counterparts to the competitive advantages of an integrated North American market. Generally, they are receptive.

Turning to the NAFTA, the agreement is now in its eighteenth year. With tariffs almost totally eliminated, the trilateral agenda has increasingly focused on barriers behind the border—first and foremost differences in regulations that impede trade.

When stakeholders are consulted it is often the first element they identify as a barrier or cost of doing business in the US and Mexico.

This is a central issue for the ongoing agenda of the NAFTA Free Trade Commission, identified as regulatory cooperation. Current efforts are focused on identifying sectors and agreeing on priorities for action.

This is a complex and labour intensive process, requiring a high degree of consensus among stakeholders and provincial/territorial governments. Our regulatory cooperation work within the NAFTA framework compliments other bilateral efforts that we are undertaking with the U.S.

Last Friday, Prime Minister Harper and President Obama reaffirmed their commitment to regulatory cooperation through the creation of a United States—Canada Regulatory Cooperation Council, which will build on and strengthen previous efforts as well as provide a solid basis for cooperation and continued collaboration going forward.

Another area of current focus in the NAFTA work plan is assistance to small and medium-sized enterprises seeking to enter international markets or expand the range of their exports. The U.S. in particular has promoted work on SMEs, reflecting the objectives in President Obama's national export initiative.

Government procurement is another sector where the Canada-U.S. trade relationship has recently been enhanced and where there may be scope for further gains. Under the bilateral agreement on government procurement signed last year, Canadian suppliers gained formal access to the bidding process in 37 states and U.S. suppliers secured similar access in the provinces and territories. In Canada’s view this should be a first step. The agreement provides for the possibility of broadening the scope of commitments, which would be in the interests of both countries.

Let me comment that what’s at stake is not just government procurement and not just the billions of dollars in U.S. stimulus programs, which involves public works and infrastructure projects. What's at stake is the bigger business relationships in supply chains. Once established, those relationships, if broken, are difficult to re-establish, and that’s what’s at stake in respect of policies like Buy American.

On softwood lumber, much attention has been directed to the arbitration under the softwood lumber agreement of 2006. This was the case recently with the request for arbitration against British Columbia’s timber pricing system and the result of the arbitration against provincial programs in Ontario and Quebec in support of their forest products industry.

It is worth noting that in the provincial programs arbitration, the U.S. initially requested $1.8 billion in compensation for circumvention of the agreement. However, in its final ruling the tribunal ordered an additional export tax of 0.1% for Ontario and 2.6% for Quebec to compensate for the programs not in conformity with the agreement. That would represent, in the view of the experts, something like 3% of the claim against Canada.

The arbitration mechanism is an element of the softwood lumber agreement, and should be seen as a demonstration that the agreement is working. It has given Canadian producers and exporters a predictable trade environment in a very difficult market for the past three and a half years. That's why it is broadly supported by provincial governments and Canadian industry.

One other issue of major concern that I would like to mention is the US Country of Origin Labelling requirements that affect the ability of our cattle and hog farmers to compete fairly in the US market. Canada has brought this issue to the WTO along with Mexico. A dispute settlement panel was established in November 2009 to determine whether the COOL measures are consistent with the international trade obligations of the US.

The first substantive meeting of the panel took place in September 2010 and a second in early December 2010. We expect the panel to issue its decision by summer 2011, and are confident that our challenge will be successful. However, Canada also remains open to further discussion with the US to resolve the issue outside the dispute settlement process.

Lastly, a word on a bilateral issue of very high priority for the United States: intellectual property--in particular, copyright and enforcement of IP rights.

In any meetings that you may have in the United States, you will no doubt be reminded of the urgency attached by the U.S. government to passage of legislation to bring our copyright law into conformity with WIPO standards in the digital area. They are giving considerable prominence to this issue on our bilateral trade policy agenda. As you know, a bill on copyright modernization has completed second reading and is currently before a legislative committee for review. Needless to say, all developments relating to copyright reform are being closely monitored in the United States.

In conclusion, I'd like to make a few remarks on Canada’s international trade negotiation agenda in the World Trade Organization and on the bilateral and regional side with countries outside of North America.

In the Doha round of WTO negotiations, we share some priorities and objectives with the United States; in fact, we share most priorities of the United States, the most important of which is an ambitious market access outcome in the round.

We are also engaged in an ambitious agenda of bilateral and regional free trade agreement negotiations with a growing number of partners. For example, our negotiations with the European Union on the CETA are well advanced, and we have recently launched negotiations on an FTA with India. These are comprehensive initiatives with major trading partners, neither of which are mirrored in the U.S. trade agenda. These and other negotiations follow on FTAs recently concluded or in force with the European Free Trade Association, Peru, Colombia, Jordan, and Panama.

We are making headway in our goal to diversify our markets. Our reliance on the U.S. market has decreased significantly, but it will remain our largest market and most important partner for the foreseeable future. Overall, it's a relationship that works very well, but its scale requires us to continue to manage it as a top trade policy priority.

I thank you for your attention and look forward to your questions.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Stephenson.

We're going to begin this round of questioning with the former chairman of the committee, the vice-chairman, John Cannis.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to everybody.

You're right, Mr. Stephenson. We are making headway. We cannot but continue to emphasize that they are our largest trading partners, very important to our country. I'm glad you tied in the other trade agreements that are under way—Canada-Europe, for example—as we're seeing them expand in their own way. I think we have to be very careful there as well.

You've touched on so many things. In the short time I have, I'm just going to touch on two or three.

Thank you for this in-depth briefing, to start off with.

You talked about borders, security, modernizing the borders. I think you'll agree with me that there are two separate things: modernizing the border in terms of flow and, technically speaking, in terms of security. Maybe, Mr. Stephenson, you could elaborate on those two altogether separate things and what we can do—I know the Prime Minister was there discussing security aspects, I believe, but in terms of modernizing how the border facilitates itself back and forth.

Then you talked about the problem that we are not well known in the U.S. Maybe you can suggest how we can overcome that. Because often—and I say often—they get into an election, or elected candidates make statements that are false, if I may say, because they're in a campaign or they wish to send a message to their local constituents that is actually inaccurate. It causes problems, I believe.

What would you suggest we do? Do we have our ambassador undertake a more aggressive state? Do we have committees from Canada visit state by state and exchange in a more in-depth way? Maybe you could suggest some more. This way, we could make the rest of the United States, aside from Washington, know better who we are and what we do.

With respect to SMEs, I'm glad you touched upon that, because we've heard from SMEs in the past in terms of their ability or inability to compete with the Buy American program. We as a country, as you know, are very receptive to working above board.

You talked about the country-of-origin labelling. That also concerns me, because I go back to the BST problem we had some years ago. We chose as a country to deal with it, and our position was based on science and not emotion. On the other hand, we were having that file driven emotionally from others, if I may use that word. How do we overcome that? How do we get that point across to the decision-makers down there that irrespective of the pressure they might receive from their local constituencies, or districts, as they call them...? How do we work with them?

How do we work on the softwood lumber issue? What more can we do as a government, as a committee, as a nation, to try to overcome some of these problems?

The last question I'll tie in is this. Do you think the trade barriers we have within our country, from province to province, impede or have any kind of negative impact when it comes to dealing with the United States?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Well, there are an awful lot of parts to that question. I'm going to let Michael address the issue of the border, and the part of the initiative from Friday that I will deal with directly and personally will be the regulatory cooperation piece. So I'll let Michael take a whack at that.

But with respect to increasing our visibility, I would say that the focus in Washington is--I guess it's obvious--the United States and their own set of economic challenges. In my experience, it's not that they think badly of us; it's just that sometimes they don't think of us at all. It comes as a surprise, sometimes, to Americans that Saudi Arabia isn't their largest supplier of energy--it's Canada. And it comes as a surprise that something approaching 30% of our exports to them are their firms in Canada shipping back into the U.S., or that something like a third is inside supply chains as inputs into the products that they are making. Therefore, if they put up barriers to those imports, they're making their own products less competitive.

The reason there are supply chains is that you're buying something cheaper, better, and faster from a supplier. That's why you choose them. If you close the border in some way or make it more difficult, you're hurting yourself, and I think that's a message that.... The deep integration comes as a surprise to policy-makers.

On how to do better advocacy, I guess Lynda should take a crack at that.

With respect to the SME focus, as I say, we are going to try to go further than the existing Buy American agreement with the United States. In fact, Laurent was in Washington yesterday to start the discussion with the U.S. side, in a kind of a scoping exercise for how we will proceed in those discussions and see if we can go deeper. Certainly it has a greater effect on small businesses than large, because they have less capacity on the ground in the U.S. to work the market and to find the workarounds from those regulations.

Also, while I'm on the subject of SMEs, I'd comment that SMEs have an unusually large share of Canada's new markets where we're diversifying our markets into Asia, into Latin America, and even into Europe. The SME part of that trade is larger than the rest of our trade, so it's an important part of expanding our markets.

With respect to COOL, I would note that the U.S., to their credit, was the first market to reopen to Canadian beef, and that was because they did accept a science-based approach. So I guess it doesn't always go badly. But in respect of COOL, we would suggest that it's not science-based; it's based on markets. That's the case we're making in the WTO. By the way, I would comment that in respect of pressing these cases, the minister is very active in trying to make that case with his counterparts in the United States.

With regard to interprovincial barriers to trade, I would suggest that at the moment in respect of our activity in trade negotiations, those barriers are mostly a problem, or at least a challenge, in respect of our negotiations with Europe. But soon, I suppose, when we get into the substance of the regulatory cooperation agenda that we launched last week, we may find that the interprovincial regulatory barriers become a problem.

Michael, will you add a word?

9:20 a.m.

Michael Rooney Director, Unites States Transboundary Affairs Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you for the question on the issue of modernizing the border. I think it's an important one, and I think Friday's declaration by the two governments is going to be a step that's going to help us achieve some of the things we need to do to accelerate economic competitiveness, jobs, and growth.

It's important to note as you head down to Washington that the border relationship has evolved over a whole number of years. We've been discussing ways with our partners in the United States on how to keep and operate an efficient border, maintaining the flow of goods and services and people while keeping threats away from the border.

You'll recall that on 9/11 there was a serious attack on the United States. It affected Canada also, and the U.S. began a much more security-focused approach to managing the border. The government of the day then worked with the United States to come up with the “smart border” plan, which addressed some of the security issues and began programs such as “trusted traveler”, which helped to accelerate folks through the border.

Now we've come to a point where we have a willing partner on the other side of the border, the United States, which wants to discuss further the economic aspects of the relationship and how we might manage the border.

The declarations contained some of the areas that will be looked at, such as infrastructure and improving the traffic flows between Canada and the United States. There's the matter of expanding some of these programs, like “trusted traveler”, ensuring that legitimate people and the flow and goods of services keep moving. It's extremely important to our economic competitiveness.

It's a first step in a process, a dialogue. We'll have an excellent opportunity to sit down with the United States and work through these various issues and improvements.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

Lynda, could you give us something on advocacy?

9:20 a.m.

Lynda Watson Director, North America Commercial Programs, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Our major mission in the United States is to become better known and to have the United States understand us better and realize how important we are to them. It begins in Washington with an ambitious agenda, led by the ambassador, of outreach to members of Congress, but it continues all around the country. We have about 20 offices around the United States, some of them tiny. We have two people in New Jersey, four in Phoenix, five in Raleigh-Durham. They have an ambitious agenda of out-calls, both in the business community and in the political and civil society. The message always is our mutual dependency and the mutual benefits that come from our relationship.

In recent years we've been, I hope, a little more creative in some of what we do. Several years ago we established something called Connect2Canada. It's an online membership where individuals who subscribe can find out all sorts of things about Canada, from energy to trade to culture. There are over 40,000 Americans who have subscribed to it because of their interest in Canada.

Several years ago we began an initiative in Washington called “all politics is local”. Our consuls-general from all around the country converge on Washington once or twice a year for an intensive one-day program of calls on members of Congress. One day like this reperesents 70 or 80 individual meetings with members of Congress. You repeat this enough times, and you find yourself in front of pretty much every member of Congress, telling the Canadian story and leaving behind fact sheets.

I know the interparliamentary group has had a very active program, both in Washington and regionally. So we're working at this. There are 300 million Americans, though, and it will take us a while to talk to every one of them.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Don, Mr. Rooney, and Ms. Watson. That's very helpful.

We went a little over our time, but I think it was the kind of question everyone had an interest in, so we gave a little latitude.

We're going to move on to Monsieur Guimond.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, madam, gentlemen.

Mr. Stephenson, in your presentation, you said that we have a unique economic partnership. I agree with you. What we have with the United States is special in economic development terms. It's big, but I am one of those who think we still have to develop it. On Tuesday, at the last committee meeting, we listened to a forum broadcast on the CPAC channel. The subject was the challenge of continuing to develop trade while protecting our sovereignty. That word has a lot of importance for us at the Bloc Québécois; it has a visceral impact. We are in favour of it as well.

In your introduction, you mentioned the Agreement on Government Procurement that was negotiated and went into effect in February 2010. In that agreement, Canada and the United States gave each other 12 months to begin exploratory talks on a possible deepening of those commitments. That was a little more than 12 months ago. Where do things stand now? Have any steps been taken to move forward?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

I'm going to let Laurent answer that because he was there yesterday, two or three days before the 12-month deadline expired.

9:25 a.m.

Laurent Cardinal Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

That provision of the agreement provided for a 12-month period from the effective date, which was February 16, 2010. So we beat the deadline by a week.

The commitment was to sit down and discuss the possibility of deepening procurement commitments. The first meeting was held yesterday. That meeting focused much more on the organization of the talks, that is how we are going to go about it and in accordance with what timetable. We have to see each party's interest in deepening the commitments made last year. We proposed an approach to the Americans, where each party will work on its own side to determine the size and scope of procurement markets of the various orders of government and to establish current procurement commitment levels. On that basis and based on that technical work, we will have to meet again in order to determine more clearly whether there is an interest in expanding and deepening that commitment.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Did you adopt a timetable so the government can make decisions on that expansion?

9:25 a.m.

Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Laurent Cardinal

The timetable focuses more on the immediate work and its various stages. Possibly around April or May, there will be another meeting to discuss preparatory work aspects that will have to be carried out on both sides.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I have a question that comes to mind given my nature and occupational bias. I talked about this last year when our committee was studying this agreement. Have you conducted any studies since February 2010 in order to acquire tools that will enable you to move forward with regard to the potential expanding of commitments? Do you have any data? What does this do, and for whom? Are there winners, losers?

9:25 a.m.

Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Laurent Cardinal

This is an agreement to access government procurement and government contracts of the various government entities. There is no study as such establishing the specific result, in dollar terms, establishing what the impact was.

As Mr. Stephenson mentioned, the consequence of the provisions put in place under the measures of the Buy American Act was often a break in supply chains. Rather than being able to certify the origin of products, distributors simply dropped the Canadian supplier to avoid complications. The agreement provides access to the opportunity to bid on contracts. There is no guarantee that a Canadian supplier will win a contract. There is a guarantee that, if it cannot bid on a contract, it will not win the contract. The approach is more to afford the opportunity to offer one's services and goods without any guarantee in return. The suppliers don't give us any information on the contracts they win and don't tell us what contracts they don't win. It's a bit difficult to establish the economic value of the agreement that was reached.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Is it difficult or impossible?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Laurent Cardinal

I would say it's virtually impossible because the workload is too great. You'd have to survey every contract and see whether Canadian suppliers took part in calls for tenders and what the results were.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Your answer is very clear. Thank you very much.

Earlier, Mr. Stephenson, you mentioned country of origin labelling. Nearly two years ago, I had the opportunity to attend meetings in Washington when the committee travelled there. During those meetings, we obviously discussed this problem at length. You summed up the situation, particularly with regard to the WTO. You seem optimistic. I'm a little less so. I hope your optimism will prevail.

We have definitely opted for the tribunals and WTO route. However, couldn't we be more proactive in agriculture, particularly with regard to beef and pork production? Have you explored options in that area?

In Quebec, for nearly 10 years now, we have invested a great deal in the traceability of our animals, cattle, lamb and pigs. In the past few months, a number of discussions have been held in Canada among a number of provinces to expand traceability, which gives us the opportunity to identify our animals from birth to the plate or supermarket, if we wish. It's a system with a highly reliable data base.

Did you consider proposing this kind of system to our American friends so we can have access to the same markets as they, so our products can have added value and we can secure larger market share there?

9:30 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

We proposed to the Americans a solution that emerges from the WTO dispute settlement process, and we explored it. However, in our opinion, there would have to be a US policy providing that slaughtering confers the origin of the final product. To date, the Americans have not been open to that solution.

As regards industry assistance, programs do exist and discussions have been held at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada to increase Canada's traceability capacity and to provide other types of assistance permitted under trade rules. However, for details on those programs, we would have to get someone from the department to explain them to us.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Monsieur Guimond.

Mr. Julian.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your thorough presentation.

I have a lot of questions. I'm going to start with the Buy American agreement. We've seen a lot of Canadian companies being rejected through this agreement--Krug company, Keilhauer. I wanted to know—and this is an extension on Mr. Guimond's questions—how many Canadian companies have been denied contracts since the Buy American agreement was signed?

9:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

I think, as Laurent was explaining, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to know the answer to the question of how many Canadian firms have been denied contracts for that reason.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

But anecdotally you would know. How many companies are you aware of?

9:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Don Stephenson

I've never done a count, and I don't have a comprehensive answer for you.