Evidence of meeting #30 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was labour.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeff Vogt  Legal Advisor, Department of Human and Trade Union Rights, International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC)
Theresa McClenaghan  Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
Charles Kernaghan  Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Right.

What percentage of imports from Jordan are coming to the United States from factories that employ guest workers in Jordan?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

It's 100%. In other words, there are no garment factories without guest workers; the Jordanians won't work in the factories there.

I understand that there's one Jordanian factory now getting off the ground that is fully Jordanian workers. I have to apologize, as I don't know enough about that, but in terms of exports, all of that is coming out of factories that are operated by guest workers.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Would you agree that engagement would be the best possible solution? Politically, the U.S. and Jordan are engaged. Commercially, a free trade agreement can only enhance engagement. Does that not lead to a better outcome? Isn't it better that we have a free trade agreement in order to be able to work towards those workers having more dignity and being able to work under better working conditions than they are currently, rather than just abandoning them?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

Yes. The problem is that the free trade agreement has been up and running for more than 10 years and has failed the workers. The will is just not there. If it had been implemented correctly, this would indeed have been a new model. This would be something that the United States, Jordan, and Canada could be quite satisfied with and encouraged by. But right now what we're seeing in cables that we have from the State Department is that Jordan is not playing ball—even with the U.S. government.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Have the labour unions, organized labour in the United States, been vocal on this at all?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

They have?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

Yes, they've turned against it.

Again, many of the unions, but particularly the Steelworkers, have been very vocal with the State Department, and very decent, but they're asking real hard questions.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Mr. Kernaghan, I have just one quick question: is there a free trade agreement on the face of this earth that you have supported?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

The Jordan agreement, but no others, and that ended up being a failure.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

So you supported the U.S.-Jordan free trade agreement, but you've never supported any other free trade agreement, including the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement or the NAFTA?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

NAFTA? No.

No, we've been to Mexico quite a bit. It's not in good condition.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Have you been to Canada at all?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Your time is gone—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Have you been to Canada?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

No, you're done.

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

Frankly, I spend my—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Mr. Easter, the floor is yours.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Kernaghan. Your testimony is pretty damning and worrying, I would certainly say, especially given the fact that the U.S.-Jordan trade agreement is in place, which I think you felt was a good one.

I guess there's a key question for us. As you know, the reason we're holding these hearings is to determine whether we support the government's initiative of going ahead with a Canada-Jordan trade agreement. I want to come to that at the end, but I have just a couple of questions on the ownership of Rich Pine factory and Classic factory, as I think you said. What is the ownership of those companies? Do you know?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

The Rich Pine factory is Taiwanese-owned, with Chinese workers, mostly. They don't come from Taiwan. They come from the mainland. The Classic factory is owned by a manager in India, who got most of his money in Dubai.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

So what's really happening in Jordan is that factories are being located in Jordan in free trade zones with ownership from outside Jordan, and to a great extent—90%—with a workforce from outside Jordan.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

According to your evidence, it's almost absolute human exploitation.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

I would say 100% yes.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I personally believe that if there are these kinds of work conditions in areas, and you as a country—Canada—set up a trade agreement under certain rules and conditions, you actually have a greater ability to apply pressure on that country and those companies that work within that country to improve labour and working conditions.

That hasn't happened, certainly, with the U.S.-Jordan trade agreement. How do you see getting around that? On the one hand, I certainly have been supportive to date of going ahead with the Canada-Jordan trade agreement, because I think you make progress on both sides and you do improve conditions. But given the experience of the U.S.-Jordan trade agreement, I'm beginning to wonder.

How do you see getting around that problem? Does it mean there has to be pressure from governments internationally in Jordan?

On Tuesday we had the Jordanian ambassador here. I'll just read you what he told us and then ask for your comments.

On the issue of the application of Jordanian law with respect to migrant and permanent residents, the Jordanian ambassador said this:

With our new laws, any labour in Jordan, be it foreign labour or domestic labour, is now covered within the Jordanian law. There is no exclusion and no different treatment.

He went on to say:

It has nothing to do with the origin of the worker; it has to do with the sector that they are working in. If you have a sector that has more than two or three workers, then everyone is covered.

How do you respond to that statement? What the ambassador told us is clearly at odds with what your evidence shows.