Evidence of meeting #40 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was honey.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Newman  Executive Director, Market Access and Trade, Council of Forest Industries (COFI), Canada Wood Group
Lee Townsend  Vice-Chair, Canadian Honey Council
Phil de Kemp  President, Malting Industry Association of Canada
Raymond Loo  As an Individual
Mark Nantais  President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

11:50 a.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Honey Council

Lee Townsend

Actually, I have no concerns about that at all. Our industry took the initiative to increase the standards in Japan for our product because we found that the Japanese buyers were very hesitant in relaying to us what they would like to see, whether it be testing protocols or our traceability standards.

We told them what the best we could offer them was, and we've worked together to increase that standard. While the standards in Canada definitely are lower than they are in Japan, there are producers who are equipped to meet the standards in Japan. More and more producers in Canada are seeing that, so they are almost being forced to meet those same standards to remain competitive.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Are Quebec producers doing well on traceability standards?

11:50 a.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Honey Council

Lee Townsend

It's definitely a struggle for provinces such as Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and the Maritimes, because they are generally smaller producers. They don't have the finances available to meet some of the standards of these other countries. They're a much smaller base, but the ones who are exporting are meeting the same standards that we are out west.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Okay.

I have another question. It is well known that bee numbers are decreasing due to environmental issues. Will this affect bee colonies? Does that concern you? Could it seriously affect your production?

11:50 a.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Honey Council

Lee Townsend

Well, from 2006 to 2011, our industry faced the worst wintering losses it has had in its history, ranging from 35% loss to 90% winter loss. But it's very hard to find an unhappy beekeeper this year. We've probably had our best wintering ever.

Due to that, we're looking forward to the potential of even more growth in Japan. You are correct in saying that with our wintering losses being pretty bad, like they were the last six years, it has made it difficult for us to meet the requirements for Japan for the quantity of honey required. But this year is a bad year to ask that, because everybody is pretty happy.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Fine. Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

Mr. Shipley, the remaining time is yours.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you very much.

I just want to follow up. Actually, I think it's a good year to ask about the honey business because those are natural occurrences in the weather.

But I want to go back also to one of the comments that you had, and I know you touched on it, where they sometimes have to pay two to three times because of tariffs and other things, which we understand now, for their honey from Argentina and Chile because of the competition, and they blend it.

We don't have that opportunity, then, to be in that same league with them, to be able to blend the honey. Or is it that we send the high-quality honey to them, and they use that as the top end of the honey that they blend to sell? How does that work? Having two to three times the cost is difficult.

11:55 a.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Honey Council

Lee Townsend

Yes, it's very much so.

It's partly our fault, I would say. The reason our honey is so expensive there is because of the quality of the honey and the fact that honey from Canada has been known to be the best in the world. The only honey that currently goes into Japan that's more expensive than Canadian honey is manuka honey from New Zealand, but there's a very small quantity of that heading there.

But it's common all over the world. They'll take the high-end honey from countries like Canada and pay a large amount of money for it, and then buy the cheap honey from all these other countries—underdeveloped countries or countries like China, Argentina, that don't have the same standards or quality as we do—and they blend them together to bring their costs down.

That's where those comments were coming from.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Okay.

I would never ever want to suggest that we would not continue to provide the best honey, because everything that we've heard from witnesses across the board here, in terms of the EPA with Japan, is that they prefer quality. And they are, in many cases, prepared to pay a premium to have that. I think you've illustrated that also.

Mr. Newman, I want to go back because we always have the discussion about how important it is to make sure the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, gets addressed. We also recognize the significance of it being Japan, which I think we will be successful at. There are always a couple of things with the TPP. You may get in or you may not, but the other part of it is this: will it ever get completed?

I'm just wondering about your comments. The U.S. has set fairly significant conditions for countries to be a part of it. Do you believe that the U.S. can actually meet the levels of their own conditions?

11:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Market Access and Trade, Council of Forest Industries (COFI), Canada Wood Group

Paul Newman

It's a good question. They have been formidable traders. In Japan, though, Canada has been very successful at dealing with its foreign counterparts, including the U.S. So we welcome U.S. competition in that market.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I wonder if Mr. de Kemp might have a comment.

11:55 a.m.

President, Malting Industry Association of Canada

Phil de Kemp

From an agricultural perspective, and having been involved in working in two WTO negotiations over the last 25 years, I would be very surprised if the U.S. is going to be able to walk the talk. You take a look at rice; you take a look at cotton. Let's see where it goes from there.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I think that's often the situation.

I guess I'm done.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Yes.

Thank you very much to the witnesses. You've been very valuable as far as your presentations are concerned, and the questions and the answers were very thorough and succinct. I appreciate that very much.

With that, we will suspend and set the table for the next hour of testimony.

Thank you very much, and we'll suspend.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'd like to call the meeting back to order.

We have our witnesses with us and we have our committee members. If they would take their seats, it would be appreciated.

We have, as an individual, Mr. Raymond Loo; and from the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, Mr. Mark Nantais.

Thank you very much for being here.

Mr. Loo, we'll yield the floor to you first. The floor is yours, sir.

May 31st, 2012 / noon

Raymond Loo As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen, for the opportunity to come here today.

Noon

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chair, I would like to interrupt for a minute. Raymond had asked me earlier if it would be possible to distribute it. His presentation is only in English. I know there's a rule, but if there's unanimous consent it could be distributed.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Only if you get unanimous consent....

No, I don't see it.

Go ahead, Mr. Loo, the floor is yours.

Noon

As an Individual

Raymond Loo

I'll give you just a short history first of what my experiences are in Japan. I'm an organic farmer from P.E.I., and I've been involved in many farm organizations in P.E.I. for the last number of years trying to figure out ways of making it more profitable on the farm, but it seems like we have to start finding new markets, new opportunities.

In 2005, I decided that I probably should try to see if I could start doing some export business on my own and see if I could just make an example for other farmers. Actually I didn't really plan to become a businessman. But sometimes it feels daunting to try to start a business like that without.... It always seems you need to have a large corporation or you need to have a lot of assistance. So what I did was I actually looked at P.E.I. and what our opportunities are . We have Anne of Green Gables. We have red soil. We have good agriculture land. Where might that be marketable? I thought, probably Japan.

So I went down to Wayne Easter's office and got his book on foreign embassies. I was pretty green. I didn't know you had to dial 001 to make an international phone call when I started all this.

Noon

An hon. member

Neither did Wayne by the way.

Noon

As an Individual

Raymond Loo

I just phoned the embassy in Tokyo and asked to talk to somebody who might be interested in buying organic products or products from Prince Edward Island. The guy at the embassy said, what's your company profile and what's your product list? And I said, I don't have a company profile, I'm a farmer, and I don't have a product list because I want to go over with a blank piece of paper, see what someone wants to buy, and then see if we can grow it. So the guy said, businessmen in Japan are very busy, when you get more information, call me back. That was the end of that.

But I'm stubborn so I phoned the consulate in Osaka, which has since been closed but at the time it was there. The guy there was just as confused but much more polite, and he set me up with three business names I could contact. So I just bought a plane ticket and flew to Japan. I spent 10 days in a Buddhist temple actually. There was a woman who had volunteered at our farm who said she'd put me up. I met three different businesses there. We're now doing business with them, and I ended up meeting a partner. One of the guys has since become my partner, and he's working full time selling P.E.I. products in P.E.I.

What we've done is we started out.... He asked me if we could grow black currants. As an island that's famous for potatoes, most people didn't know what black currants were. I came back and scratched my head for a little while before I decided I wanted to try that. We now have about 60 acres of organic black currants growing in P.E.I. I think we have the largest block in Canada for sure. We started off selling jams to Japan. We sold about $20,000 worth of jam with the first shipment of stuff. Last year, we were up to about $1 million worth of identity-preserved canola, buckwheat, organic soya beans, dried dandelion roots. A lot of people think dandelions are weeds, but we can sell them over as a tea, for making teas. We're one of the only dandelion farmers now.

A fellow phoned me up in June and said, can you grow dandelions in P.E.I.? I looked out and the whole island is yellow, so I said, if I can find seed.

My son, when I was weeding the dandelions one day, said, don't tell too many people you have weed in the dandelions. They'll think you're weirder than just being an organic farmer. I'm now selling dried dandelions to Japan. I have a partnership with a company there. The owner has been back and forth to P.E.I. a couple of times, and the tsunami actually has given us a big opportunity to sell a lot more because people are scared of the Fukushima power plant radiation damage. I've been back and forth to Japan for the last eight years.

The market in Japan is a very developed market. It requires really high-quality products. There's very little room for error. We found that out having made some errors. We've attended the Foodex trade show in Japan for the last five years. We feel that the market in Japan is very important for other reasons besides just direct sales. It also gives us the opportunity to penetrate other markets that watch Japan and see it as the toughest market in the world to get into. It gives us an opportunity to look at Korea and other markets.

Like I said, we started work with some companies in central Japan. One of the things that is causing us a problem is that we need to have equivalency with the Japanese agriculture standards from an organic perspective. We also sell conventional. I don't want to make it sound like we're just selling organic products. There's a lot of conventional products going as well. The United States with the national organic program has equivalency with the Japanese standards and we don't. So an American farmer can pay $50, and they can have equivalency. They can put JAS on their product. It cost me last year about $1,800 to do the same thing and an awful lot of paperwork. So it's a huge disadvantage, especially if you're a small producer, to try and ship into the Japanese market. So that's one of the top things.

There needs to be a close relationship between the embassy staff in Tokyo and the agriculture trade staff in Japan. We've experienced some poor communication in the past so that we've shown up at functions at the embassy and almost been turned out because there was somehow a miscommunication. I had my buyers with me, and it didn't work out very well.

We need to see our government working closely with the Japanese government to try to reduce the tariffs on cold-pressed canola oil and other food products, recognizing of course that Japan is not going to do something that's going to adversely impact its own producers. We see that as one of the things that's stopping us from really expanding that market.

I think the Canadian pavilion at trade shows should be more interested in actually promoting trade and not just filling booths. Our experience is that they really want to fill the booths. When we took some buyers in there this summer, I actually got kicked out from underneath the Canadian flag because we didn't have a booth this year—we did the four previous years—and they sent us out to a restaurant. We weren't using anybody else's space—it was empty—but because we weren't there, we had to leave, and that was really embarrassing when we had the buyers there.

One of the things we have to do is a lot of residue testing, pesticide residue testing and GMO residue testing. It's very expensive to have that done in Canada so we have to send all of our samples to Japan and have them tested there, because they can do it much less expensively than we can have it done here. We feel that's a disadvantage as well because it's time-consuming, and there's always room for error if you have poor communications of some sort, which can cause problems.

I'm just quickly covering some of the issues, and I'm hoping that we can cover more in the questions.

One thing I will say is that Japan is known as the toughest market to penetrate, but once you're in there, they're absolutely.... Once you shake hands on a deal, it's been our experience that they're very good about paying and they're as good as their word. It's a really good country to be dealing with.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony. I'm sure it's going to promote a lot of questions.

Now we have, from the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, Mr. Nantais.

The floor is yours.

12:10 p.m.

Mark Nantais President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and good afternoon, members of the committee.

The Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers’ Association has had over 85 years of national experience representing Canada’s leading manufacturers and distributors of heavy and light duty vehicles in Canada.

Each of our members has different business interests and strategies. I'm happy to speak to you with respect to common concerns and viewpoints, but will also advise you if certain subject areas are better suited to be answered by those companies, I'll certainly provide you with the appropriate references and contacts.

As of today, CVMA member companies include Chrysler Canada Inc.; Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited; General Motors of Canada Limited; and Navistar Canada, Inc.

For today's presentation I thought I'd give you a bit of a perspective on Canada's automotive industry, the closed nature of Japan’s automotive market, and the challenges of trying to access the Japanese vehicle market.

Last year our members accounted for 70% of all domestic vehicle production and 47% of vehicle sales in Canada. Approximately 85% of those vehicles are exported, mostly to our primary market in the United States. In addition, CVMA member companies export Canadian-built vehicles to more than 50 countries around the world, and that number actually is growing.

CVMA members recognize the mutual benefits of a well-structured free trade agreement and support the enhancement of Canada’s economic interests through expanding and opening new global markets. We are committed to free trade and are engaged constructively with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to work towards the best possible outcomes, recognizing the important role that auto manufacturing plays in our economy across the country.

Last year the auto industry produced vehicles and parts worth $69 billion, which accounted for 12% of Canada’s manufacturing GDP. The auto industry was the second largest exporter, accounting for 12% of Canada’s total exports, valued at $53 billion at the end of 2011.

Over 40,000 Canadians work in auto assembly plants. Each one of those jobs generates nine other spinoff jobs. This is the highest ratio of any other manufacturing sector. In total, 112,000 Canadians are directly employed in the Canadian auto industry. Indirectly, the auto sector accounts for over 400,000 jobs.

Obviously, the manufacturing industry is essential to Canada’s overall economy, but it is even more critical to Ontario’s economy where the auto industry accounts for 22% of the province’s manufacturing GDP. As a result, the federal government’s international trade strategy must ensure that growth opportunities for all sectors are accrued, and that includes the automotive sector.

Since the signing of the 1965 Auto Pact, Canada’s auto industry has been built around free trade, including the subsequent U.S. FTA, and ultimately, NAFTA itself. NAFTA has actually been a tremendous benefit for Canada's auto industry, not to mention many other industries.

After nearly 50 years of carefully executed and irreversible policy decisions, Canadian auto production is geared to support an integrated North American market providing larger economies of scale to offer the best products at the most competitive prices for consumers. Trade agreements must recognize the high levels of North American integration, designed to maximize efficiency and investment opportunities.

When this is taken into account, CVMA members generally support well-structured free trade agreements with countries that demonstrate commercially meaningful, open market access. Last year with sales of about five million vehicles, Japan ranked as the third largest vehicle market in the world, behind China and the United States. By comparison, 1.6 million vehicles were sold in Canada in 2011.

Unfortunately, in the case of Japan, a decade of import history confirms a lack of significant penetration by foreign automakers, and objectively demonstrates that Japan's auto market is not an open one. Despite the fact there is zero duty on finished vehicles imported into Japan, over 95% of the vehicles sold in Japan are being produced domestically.

The graph the clerk was kind enough to distribute to you earlier demonstrates the situation quite clearly when you look at the penetration level of imports into Japan of less than 4%.

Despite applying no duty whatsoever to imported vehicles, Japan ranks last of all the OECD countries in terms of market access for imported vehicles. This is entirely inconsistent with market trends observed in developed economies around the world.

The average market penetration of imported vehicles across the OECD, as you will see in that graph, is 54%. That's 13 times more than that of Japan.

In Canada's case, Canada is one of the most open markets in the world with just 19% of vehicles sold in Canada actually being produced in Canada. Over 80% of the vehicles sold in Canada are built elsewhere.

Twenty-five per cent of the vehicles sold in Canada are built outside of NAFTA, notwithstanding Canada's 6.1% duty. Forty-five per cent of the vehicles sold in Canada are built in the United States. Ten per cent of the vehicles sold are built in Mexico.

So while the Japanese market consumes about five million vehicles a year, Japan actually produces double that number, and policies are clearly directed to ways to find homes for those vehicles elsewhere in terms of export opportunities. The closed nature of Japan's auto market did not happen by accident but was deliberately created by active public policy tools. It has been the subject of intense scrutiny since the 1960s, including a number of different bilateral U.S. initiatives in the 1980s and 1990s that attempted to open the automotive market in Japan. Unfortunately, not one of those resulted in any meaningful improvements.

In general terms, Japanese non-tariff barriers include a largely unique set of auto standards and regulations, an opaque rule-making process, and a certification regime that remains difficult and costly. I'll give you one example.

For instance, although Japan has made progress in harmonizing some of its auto regulations with the European regulations, significant differences remain, and Japan continues to opportunistically adopt new and unique regulations. The prevailing stance of regulatory unpredictability makes it extremely difficult to ascertain, for business planning purposes, whether a product will be commercially viable in Japan's automotive market.

Certification for sale in Japan is also very costly—usually millions of dollars per new vehicle—essentially limiting sales of most foreign automobiles to fewer than 2,000 units per year under a streamlined small-volume approval process, but Japan has sought to limit consumer demand for even the smaller number of vehicles imported through the small-volume approval process. Again I have an example. Vehicles sold under the small-volume approval process were initially excluded from the eligibility of the cash for clunkers program, a government stimulus program. Under international pressure, Japan subsequently relented, but only allowed a small number of imported vehicles to qualify.

Before starting negotiations, Japan must show a commitment to opening its market that results in a significant increase in imports at levels comparable to those of other OECD countries. Discussions with Japan must comprehend the significant challenges that I've identified. Without doing so, an economic partnership agreement would not be beneficial to all sectors and may in fact prove to be detrimental to Canada's auto industry.

Mr. Chairman, I'll stop there. I'll certainly be glad to address any questions the committee may have. Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Certainly, and thank you very much for that.

We will now move to questions and answers. We have Mr. Davies first, for seven minutes.

The floor is yours.