Evidence of meeting #42 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kerry Buck  Political Director and Assistant Deputy Minister, International Security, Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Jean-Benoît Leblanc  Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations Division I, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Alex Neve  Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International
Hassan Yussuff  Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

There is a motion by the committee to have two days of hearings. We'll fulfill those two days of hearings and there's nothing further in that motion.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

But we could, if we so decided as a committee—and I think we should—have two days of hearings based on what we've heard. I think it would be very useful for the committee to draft a letter—it doesn't have to be an extensive report—to make it very clear to the government, based on what we've heard, that we think they should be living up to their obligations, and also to note, as Mr. Neve said, that his organization has been trying to communicate with the government, not very successfully, and is making some recommendations on what should be done in terms of a baseline. That would I think be helpful to the department and government. So I think we should. In any event, we can consider that at another time, I guess.

Pardon?

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Go ahead.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I just want to see that the government doesn't stop the committee members; it certainly wouldn't stop progress to make some decent recommendations.

Mr. Neve, you had mentioned that you had difficulty getting your point of view to the department and finding out about the process. What from your point of view can you either table with the committee or tell the committee that would be useful in making that report more comprehensive and of more value?

12:50 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

I think there are many sources to look at.

I think the guidelines that have been tabled now at the UN Human Rights Council by the Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food provide a very strong starting point and lay out the clear criteria that should guide this sort of assessment. I think central to that is the need for it truly, in a meaningful way, to be participatory and inclusive of those communities and individuals whose rights are at stake. Sadly, in Colombia, that is quite a wide variety of sectors. But it's absolutely vital that there be a meaningful, transparent, accessible process that's going to ensure that indigenous communities, Afro-descendant communities, the trade union movement, women's equality organizations, human rights defenders—a whole variety of sectors that are impacted here—are going to have a meaningful opportunity to participate in the preparation of this report.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

That's at the United Nations, I guess, but do you know if the government is looking at using those criteria? Are they part of their criteria for next year?

12:50 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

That's unclear to us. As I say, throughout these past many months, we have repeatedly sought information about what framework, what criteria, what norms, what standards are going to guide this process, and we've not been able to get that information.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Maybe, Mr. Chair, too, and maybe, Mr. Neve, you could at least forward to the clerk as well the link to the criteria so that if we do decide as a committee to report, which I think we should, then we might be able to include them in a recommendation to the government.

Mr. Yussuff.

12:50 p.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

I think it would be very good for the department to consult with those of us who have an interest in what the baseline is going to be. Given that there's no report for this committee to really evaluate, if there's going to be a report next year, I think it would be critical that there be some collaboration as to what it would look like in terms of the measurement. And, more importantly we've got recommendations that we'd also provide to the government. I also think again that given this is the first trade agreement in which this particular amendment was made to the agreement, it is critical that this lead to a positive development as to how we could assess what situations are in a particular country and how they evolve, improve, or otherwise over time. I think that should be seen as a positive thing. I think it requires, of course, collaboration to make this meaningful. Also, the reports talk about the situation of human rights in Canada, and while we may not want to talk about that, specifically, I think the government also needs to make sure that the report is also inclusive of that.

In regard to Colombia, we are not aware of the Colombian government providing an—

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Be very quick.

12:50 p.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

The Colombian government is also required to submit a report in their legislative structure about the human rights situation. We are not aware the Colombian government has moved to ensure that any such report has been tabled in their legislature.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Shory, you will be the last questioner.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know that I am always short of time. I won't waste time.

Thank you to the witnesses. By the way, we always like to hear the different views and visions. That helps us as we put our report together.

We all know that Canadians have no appetite whatsoever for human rights violations. We stand, and our federal government definitely stands, for human rights.

Before I ask a question, I want to share a story, a personal story. In 1991 or 1992, when I was in B.C., our family got in touch somehow with a very nice family. We're still friends—or more like brothers. The head of that family, my friend, had some alcohol abuse problems, which were bringing his business and everything else down. Somehow I took on that challenge, at the family level, and I got closer and closer to him. I was meeting with him more and more and working with him. Ultimately, we became so engaged that we were meeting virtually every evening, and slowly, slowly....

In short, the gentleman now, he drinks, he enjoys, he parties, and everything, but he is running the business now with 27 employees. What that tells me in my life is that isolation does not work; engagement is very important, whether it is on an individual and personal level or on a country level, a business level, or whatever.

Mr. Yussuff, in answer to Mr. Davies' question, you said that in the last 20 years, there were 2,000 murders or so. This last year, there were 29, basically. Some years, you said, there were more, and some years, there were less. We all hope that this trend continues, that there will be fewer and fewer murders and that all these issues are resolved to our satisfaction. That's what I would say.

First, is there any collaboration between the Colombian government and the trade unions that are basically under attack, according to the commentary hear today?

12:55 p.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

Yes, to be fair, there is constant dialogue between the trade union movement and the Colombian government. Steps are taken by the government to try to help prevent and stop the violence. For many of our colleagues who are threatened or whose lives are in danger, quite often the government does provide security to ensure that those workers and leaders are not killed in their country. In some cases, they're quite accommodating in trying to work with us to get them out of the country so that they won't be assassinated and their families won't be killed.

So there is some ongoing dialogue. The reality is that despite all of that, folks are still being killed in regard to doing their duties.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

What is your view, Mr. Neve?

12:55 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

Do you mean with respect to dialogue between the trade union movement and the Colombian government?

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Are there any collaborative actions?

12:55 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

Well, I would certainly defer to Mr. Yussuff with respect to the trade union movement. But more widely, there are a number of initiatives the government has taken to try to work with the human rights community, as well.

No one is suggesting that the Colombian government doesn't have initiatives that they've launched. And no one is suggesting that there haven't been some reforms on some fronts. I think what we're highlighting, though, is that on all of those fronts, very real, serious, ongoing challenges remain.

On some issues, such as the number of indigenous nations facing possible extinction, for instance, there's a grave crisis.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you.

Is it fair to say that the Colombian government, if not in compliance, is moving towards compliance or is attempting to comply with their obligations under this agreement, even though there are still huge challenges to face and to fix?

12:55 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

I think we would say that there are perhaps some fronts where you could say that there is some effort, some movement.

There are other areas where the crisis remains very real, and we're not seeing action. I would again come back to the situation of indigenous peoples, because this is an area we've been following very closely. It is an area very much linked up with areas of trade and investment potential in the country. There are constitutional court recommendations. The country's own constitutional court has recommended what needs to happen to better protect indigenous peoples, and that hasn't been taken up.

12:55 p.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

I think the Colombian government has a long way to go. I think keeping the pressure on them will only ensure that they meet and comply with their responsibilities.

I just want to say for the record that we're not here asking for the isolation of Colombia. We're here asking that the Colombians meet their obligations and responsibilities as we expect them to—and as they expect us to, with our own laws. In that regard, I think we need to keep the pressure on, because I think we do have some influence. More importantly, as one of your colleagues said, one death is too many. Twenty-nine is far too many. And more importantly, to be at the top of the list year after year I think is simply—

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Devinder Shory Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Oh, yes. I agree, Mr. Yussuff.

The chair is going to stop me very soon. Quickly, when you say there's a long way to go, have they started walking?

12:55 p.m.

Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

It depends upon what day you ask me that question. The fact that we are having this discussion in this context here is a positive thing. We just need to ensure, when we do produce a report next year, that there is good collaboration as to how we can make that report meaningful so we can at least say that we're measuring the right things and we're seeing progress or we're not seeing progress.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

12:55 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

I just wanted to pick up on that, because I don't think the question of whether or not they have started walking is the full question that needs to be asked. What we need to ask is whether they have started walking and whether we have a full sense of the path they need to be walking on. It's a full, independent human rights impact assessment, the kind of thing that didn't happen in this latest report, that builds that understanding of the path that needs to be followed.