International Trade Committee on June 7th, 2012

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Yussuff, according to the January 2012 report of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights on the human rights situation in Colombia, there continue to be a significant number of attacks against trade union members in Colombia. How would you describe relations between the Colombian government and the trade union movement? And has there been any discernable change since our agreement came into force on August 15 of last year?

[Hassan Yussuff]

Clearly, we have a very vibrant trade union movement in Colombia, despite the fact that it's probably the most dangerous field one could possibly choose to work in. Simply by making the commitment to be a trade union leader, you're putting a death sentence on your head. We have seen year after year the number of deaths that continue to occur among my colleagues in that country. This has been as troubling an issue for us, both at the international level as—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can I just interrupt you?

How many trade unionists have been murdered in Colombia over, say, the last 20 years? We're not just talking about an academic report here; we're talking about what I'm led to believe is the most dangerous place in the world for someone to be engaged in a trade union. Over 2,000, I think, trade unionists have been murdered.

[Hassan Yussuff]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

We can only imagine what would happen if you had 2,000 deaths in Canada.

[Hassan Yussuff]

Colombia has the highest rate of union deaths of any country in the world. It's consistent, of course, with the fact that the majority of these workers who are killed are union leaders on the front line—obviously, engaging in negotiations, strikes, and issues of representing their members to a large extent.

There were 29 murders in 2011. Those are 29 of my colleagues dead. There were 10 attempted murders, and the list goes on and on. In terms of quantitative numbers, yes, it's less than the previous year, but again, the year is yet to be concluded.

Consistently, Colombia has the award for having the highest number of trade union deaths. And this has been a consistent issue we have raised with the Colombian government at the international level. The ILO sent a special mission to dialogue with the Colombian government about steps it could take to try, of course, to ensure the protection of trade union leaders in that country. That's a work in progress. Of course, this started before the Canada-Colombia Free Trade Agreement came into being.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I guess what I want to ask is, would have it been helpful, at least in this report, if they couldn't do an assessment on the linkage between the trade and the human rights situation to at least have had baseline information included? DFAIT could have come and said “Look, we can't give you the links yet, but here are the figures we're going to start from so we have a basis to build on for the next annual report”.

Would that have been helpful in this report?

[Hassan Yussuff]

It would have been extremely important. I think for the future report it will be important for us to know the baseline that the government intends to use.

We have worked with an organization within Colombia to do a report. They will be coming to this committee to testify, and you can ask them specific questions. They have used the baseline. They have documented what the situation has been in Colombia within that period. More importantly, I think they can tell you from their experiences, in their report, what they've been able to ascertain in regard to the human rights situation in Colombia since the free trade agreement has been implemented.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cannan, the floor is yours.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today, and thank you for your passion for human rights around the world. I've had a chance to meet with Mr. Neve a few times.

Mr. Yussuff, I want to pick on what Mr. Davies mentioned about the trade unionists.

We were there about three years ago, as a committee. One death is too many, but over the last five years has that number been going down?

[Hassan Yussuff]

To be factual, the numbers have come down. But they vary from year to year. We can see numbers drop in one particular year and then go up the following the year. We're hoping, if this is any indication, that the number of colleagues getting killed is going to be less and less.

The reality is that the actual numbers have come down. We don't know if that is permanent or if it's a circumstance of that particular moment.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Human rights have been at the heart of CIDA's bilateral programming for years. The previous witnesses from the department alluded, with regard to DFAIT's global peace and security fund, that over $41 million has been allocated to a variety of projects.

I'm wondering if you've seen some benefits from those dollars. Have there been some results over the last few years from the $41 million that's been invested to date, from your experience?

[Hassan Yussuff]

Well, I'll speak on two fronts. One, in terms of the number of people who have been displaced in Colombia, I think that situation remains probably the worst, other than in Sudan. There are more displaced people in Colombia—which doesn't get the attention it requires. In that context, Alex can speak more definitively about that.

In regard to the work the government has to do in dealing with the violation of trade unionists' human rights, the government has a long way to go. Long before we entered a free trade agreement with Colombia, the ILO had been sending special missions to Colombia. They have a permanent office now in Colombia to try to get them to do that.

I would simply say that the money Canada is spending obviously is going to provide for greater mechanisms to monitor the situation. But as a recommendation to the committee, the short answer is that the Colombian government has to be more forthright in its commitment to deal with the violent situation in that country. To date, they have not demonstrated.... It is not for me to come before this committee to grind an axe with Colombia, but they have to be more forthright in their commitment to promoting human rights in their country and to hold those institutions to account, including the military, about what has been going on in that country in regard to their violations. In regard to other paramilitary groups, of course, the government has no control, but certainly with their own security forces, they have to take greater responsibility.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

When I was there, I had a chance to visit a UN school with Mr. Julian, who was the trade critic of the day. It was a school house—a couple of rooms with different classes. I've got a different sense from Mr. Davies, but Mr. Julian was a bit over the top. Sometimes he would say we do not believe in endorsing murder and that we need to isolate these countries, that in working with developing nations, they have to have the human rights impact assessment and a flawless human rights situation before we can trade with them.

I wonder if you gentlemen could expand a bit on whether the opposition should be a bit more accommodating about promoting trade with developing countries. Or do you believe in the isolationist position that the opposition has taken in the past?

[Alex Neve]

I won't comment on what other members of Parliament may or may not have said. What I will highlight is that Amnesty International takes the stance—and I think the human rights community largely takes this stance—that we are not at all opposed to trade. We're not opposed to freer trade. What we insist is that trade—

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Which trade agreements have you supported to date?

[Alex Neve]

We did not oppose the Canada-Colombia free trade deal. We never said that this trade deal should be axed. What we said was that this trade deal raises very significant, troubling human rights challenges, and this is what needs to happen to ensure that this trade deal goes forward in a way that will both avoid contributing to a worsening of human rights violations, and beyond that, hopefully, promote and encourage human rights change and improvement in Colombia.

We were disappointed that the recommendations we and this committee had made as to some key steps to make sure that would happen—the independent expert human rights impact assessment before the trade deal came into effect, and then regular ongoing independent human rights assessments thereafter—weren't accepted. In particular I refer to the opportunity to carry out the assessment before the trade deal came into effect, because that would have given, first, the opportunity to gather some baseline data; but second, it would also have given an opportunity to identify some of the key and obvious areas of concern and, quite possibly, some areas where law reform or other kinds of institutional action were needed in Colombia to address areas of concern before the trade relationship came into effect. That didn't happen, and that was disappointing.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's a fair comment.

So you generally support the notion of giving developing countries like Jordan and Panama and Colombia the opportunity to expand their trade on those conditions?

[Alex Neve]

I think the conditions are absolutely crucial, though, because trade done poorly can be bad news for human rights protection. Trade done well can at least be neutral and perhaps, in some circumstances, can absolutely help promote and safeguard and improve human rights protection.

But it's absolutely vital that these sorts of measures, like a strong independent human rights impact assessment before and after trade deals come into effect, be central to that kind of approach.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Yussuff, do you have any comments?

[Hassan Yussuff]

Contrary to what may be believed on this committee, and on your side of the aisle, we actually don't oppose trade. The congress has never opposed trade. We've always been concerned about the nature of free trade agreements and the priority given in those agreements to the commercial side of the agreement and no priority being given to the labour side.

I'll give you one example. Many trade agreements have been negotiated with side agreements. When has there been a report to Parliament on the impact and the implementation of a side agreement in many of those agreements? We don't know. I don't expect developing countries to achieve overnight the same standards that Canada has. The reality is that quite often the agreement is signed and very little is done to implement their commitment to ensure that their labour laws are in force just as we enforce our laws, and more importantly, that they meet their obligations as we would expect of them.

The reality most of the time is that nobody shines a light on that. If there is a violation of the commercial side of the agreement, a huge amount of effort is made to rectify that. When there is a violation of the labour side of the agreement, very little commitment is made to try to implement it. That's not a criticism of your government; that situation was there with previous governments.

More importantly, I wish that the human rights situation in Colombia would improve—

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So do I.

[Hassan Yussuff]

—for the benefit of the workers in that country.

The reality is that I know that unless Canada keeps the pressure on, it will not come about because this country, I think, is very sophisticated and, more importantly, has some institutions that are deeply rooted in their society. The reality is that the political leadership has to say the violence is unacceptable and, more importantly, that it has to take steps to address it. Of course, some of this violence is directly related to the commercial development of the country. People are being displaced because they want to clear them off the land to get access to the resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much. We may have more opportunity to respond to that.

Mr. Easter, the floor is yours.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I congratulate you both as well on your work on human rights around the world.

Judging by your comments, I think you agree that the government didn't live up to its obligations under the legislation passed in Canada. I think you alluded to it, Hassan. This is troublesome because it really doesn't set a good example for Colombia, going forward.

I think last year we felt we had a small victory of sorts, that the message would go to Colombia that they were being closely monitored and that the government would report on it. This cuts the legs out from under that position, and now we will wait until next year, I guess.

But we're asking Colombia to do certain things and we didn't do things within our own country that Parliament demanded the government do. It's a very bad example.

Mr. Chair, I have a question to you first. Do we intend to draft a letter of sorts as a committee, making recommendations to government based on what we heard?