Evidence of meeting #72 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Katz, thank you for being with us today.
We know there is no study to say what the economic impact would be of Canada's joining the Pacific Alliance as a full member. Nor is there an independent assessment of how that decision might affect human rights. I believe you said that, in order to learn more, we would have to start by hearing what the economists have to say.
The Canadian Council for International Co-operation has, in the past, denounced Canada's tendency to negotiate agreements in absolute secrecy and without regard for parliamentary debate. As regards the negotiations with countries belonging to the Pacific Alliance, is it your sense that the talks will be more open in this case? What would you recommend to the federal government to encourage greater transparency when negotiating trade agreements?
Do you think Canada should see to it that legal provisions on corporate social responsibility are put in place? Corporate social responsibility is a value we hold dear, on our side. Such a step would help ensure that Canadian entities investing in member countries of the Pacific Alliance adhered to universal human rights standards.
4:20 p.m.
Representative, Americas Policy Group, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
I think you have to be very careful. As has been stated over and over in this committee, we don't know what the investment rules will be in the Pacific Alliance. We don't know the transparency or the legal requirements they will place on investors.
I think Canada and this committee need to do a study perhaps on the implications of Canada's investment rules and investment protections, starting in chapter 11. I know the negotiations of the TPP, which are related in some respects to this agreement, are taking place in secrecy. Canada has signed on to the agreement regardless of what is negotiated in secrecy, which I think is a very big mistake on Canada's part, and I think Canada should push for transparency and start by a study on the investment chapter of NAFTA.
The thing about the investment chapter is that it's being reinforced and broadened. In each trade agreement that goes forward, it becomes broader and broader. In the TPP, for example, leaks in the document have shown some countries or corporations are demanding that the companies can sue and claim expropriation if.... For example, Egypt raised its minimum wage, and some companies that were employing Egyptian labour complained to the tribunal that this was prejudicing their business. It was decreasing their profits. If a country can't raise its living standards by raising the minimum wage.... This is a really good example of how far the investment chapter can go and the negative aspects the investment chapter can have on a country.
I think that's where we need to start, deconstructing the investment chapter and seeing how we can protect investors without the detrimental impacts on human rights of citizens and on democracy. That's the key—democracy.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
When it comes to corporate social responsibility, it is clear that some Canadian companies are in difficult situations. It is hard for Canadians to imagine that a company like Barrick Gold would have to suspend its operations because of a failure to respect labour and environmental rights.
What would you suggest to ensure that Canadian companies don't end up in those kinds of situations once an agreement with the Pacific Alliance is signed?
4:25 p.m.
Representative, Americas Policy Group, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
As I say, it's hard to say how the Pacific Alliance documents and how the different agreements that take place or discussions that take place.... As far as I know, Canada is not participating in the discussions of the different working groups now. But one of the questions I raised that I think this committee needs to look at is to engage with the negotiators of the Pacific Alliance and ask the questions. What is their view on corporate social responsibility? What is their view on how foreign companies can act in their countries? What is their view on the kinds of protections that can be put in place that don't jeopardize the human rights and democratic governance of a country?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield
I'll have to interrupt you there.
Mr. Holder, you have the last five minutes.
April 22nd, 2013 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Thank you, Chair.
What I'd like to do, if I might breach protocol a slight bit, is ask Mr. Hiebert to ask a question. I can share my time with him at the front end and then resume for the balance of those few minutes.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
My single question has to do with Canada Pork International, and it relates to the 12% quota from Colombia that currently applies to duties and the quota of 5,400 tonnes.
Mr. Urias, you noted in your remarks that the Colombian exports grew 138%, which is phenomenal. I'm wondering how it is that they would grow to such a degree when there are existing quotas and tariffs on these exports. Also, what would you expect to happen if those tariffs were lifted?
4:25 p.m.
Director, Latin America and Government Programs Management, Canada Pork International
If those tariffs were lifted, we could see probably a growth in exports of between 30% to 50%. That is because our main competitor, the U.S., has a higher tariff rate imposed on their exports. If I remember correctly, I think this year the U.S. rate is 18%. Because the FTA between Canada and Colombia started a year previously to the American one, we have benefited from that difference in the rates. I don't know what else we could do, aside from, as I said, improving the conditions for the management of the TRQ and/or eliminating tariff rates to improve market access.
I believe that responds to your question.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
I'd like to thank our guests for being here.
Ms. Katz, I was struck by some of the comments you made. I'm mindful that we may have a different position with respect to each other. When my colleague asked the question about your organization, I think what he meant to ask specifically is, has your organization gone on record as supporting a country-to-country trade deal? I know that you mentioned the Auto Pact, but I don't believe, if I'm correct—I just want to be clear—on a country-to-country trade deal, that anything has been.... Is there any country that you've supported?
Ms. Lambert, do you have a thought, perhaps?
4:30 p.m.
Representative, Americas Policy Group, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
No. We're not looking at specific.... We're looking at the theory of trade agreements, the idea of trade agreements, the model of trade agreements. In the last four or five years, the model of Canada's trade agreements has been pretty much comprehensive, following the NAFTA model. It started with the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement. That set a model, setting up new rules for—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Representative, Americas Policy Group, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
Stuck on NAFTA?
4:30 p.m.
Representative, Americas Policy Group, Canadian Council for International Co-operation
Well, we were concerned that.... I wasn't with the council at that time, but I think, in general, civil society was concerned that NAFTA would open the “giant sucking sound”. Remember the giant sucking sound that Ross Perot talked about in the United States in regard to seeing the loss of jobs? We've seen that. That has come to pass. Canada's manufacturing sector has been severely affected by our free trade agreements, because labour standards and labour costs are lower in other places. That's where producers are going to produce their products, specifically in China—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
That might well be the subject for another discussion. It would be interesting to have that.
It's interesting. I looked at the tenor of your dialogue. I'm mindful of how people say what they say as well as what they say, and when I heard you talk initially about this Pacific Alliance, you said there might be some notions of trade tariff reductions and common stock markets that might come out of this Pacific Alliance. From that, I inferred that it might be positive. Then I heard you say, so then let's look at the “disadvantages”, and I think that's a direct quote. I guess this is depending on the approach you take with what makes a deal matter.
It makes me ask you this, Mr. Urias, if I might, because you indicated that “there are still opportunities”—this is from your testimony—“to improve trade conditions for Canadian pork...products”. Do you feel that is as a result of Canada becoming more closely aligned with the Pacific Alliance than is currently in place with the individual trade agreements that are in place?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Latin America and Government Programs Management, Canada Pork International
Definitely, that would be a result of—
4:30 p.m.
Director, Latin America and Government Programs Management, Canada Pork International
As I mentioned previously, having a regional agreement would allow us to probably review bilateral agreements and therefore improve on those market access conditions, such as veterinary and sanitary protocols, TRQ management imposed by some countries, and grade reductions.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Do you believe—and I heard some comments earlier—that Canada's labour standard might be lowered as a result of becoming more fully integrated with the Pacific Alliance arrangement because other countries may not have the same standard that we have?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Latin America and Government Programs Management, Canada Pork International
In regard to the Canadian pork industry, I can tell you that that may not be the case.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
It “may not be the case” or it “would not be the case”? I want to be clear on that.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Latin America and Government Programs Management, Canada Pork International
It would not be the case, actually. One of the things we try to use as a defence, as a promotional statement abroad, is our craftsmanship. We put a lot of emphasis on quality and product specification, and this is unique to Canada.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative