International Trade Committee on May 27th, 2013

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Doyle, during briefing sessions where you do not have access to the documents and the representatives have to sign confidentiality agreements, how does that work, in reality? You say you are reassured when it came to supply management, but since you have not seen the documents, are you just assuming things? I wonder about that.

[Richard Doyle]

As I said, clearly since I am not a committee member, I don't have access to the information provided in committee work. Without going into the legal details of the texts, I will say that the chief negotiator gives us a general idea of the position of various countries and the processes being followed. We are very much aware of the process. I am confident that if any issues affecting our industry in particular or major changes in that respect were to arise, we would get into much more serious discussions.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

But if your representatives signed a confidentiality agreement, they cannot really tell you what was said during those briefing sessions.

Is it just representatives from the department and from your group that are present, or are there broader forums that include other industries?

[Richard Doyle]

There are various levels. The committee we are talking about is sectoral. It covers the entire economy and services, not just agriculture. We had people on site during the negotiations that took place last week in Lima.

Every evening, the negotiators update the people present. They explain to them what took place during the day. Even then, they do not go into detail in terms of the text, but speak about the situation broadly. People can meet with the negotiators individually to discuss the broader issues of the dairy industry. We can at least voice our concerns on the matter, even though we do not have access to the documents.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

You have two minutes.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay.

My question is for Mr. Sinclair.

[Scott Sinclair]

Yes.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Does Canada still have the possibility of adopting a different position in these negotiations? Could we be more demanding or are we involved in an irreversible process? Do we still have the option of conducting another kind of more open or different negotiation?

[Scott Sinclair]

That would be a matter that would have to be agreed to by all the members.

There's also leeway that can be taken by governments and negotiators. The United States negotiators, as is generally the case in negotiations, use leaks strategically. They are much more open about what their demands are, and in a sense are less preoccupied with secrecy when it doesn't suit their purposes.

Canada could play that game more, but I think what would be more preferable, of course, would be an agreement to open up the process to outside scrutiny. I think you're invariably going to have better outcomes.

These texts are not easily understood or accessible. They need to be explained by negotiators. Negotiators need to have a few things explained to them, for example, from public health experts and legal experts who are outside the formal consultative process and outside of the negotiating room.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

[Scott Sinclair]

Yes, Canada could insist on a more open process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

We have five minutes left.

Mr. Holder, the floor is yours.

Bells may go. Do I have the unanimous consent to let him finish his five minutes of questioning?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Go ahead, Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank both our guests for being here today.

Chair, I was listening to testimony from our guests. I heard less testimony than I heard a soliloquy from my colleague opposite, Mr. Easter. One thing struck me about that. I was thinking about his comments about transparency. I just want to make this statement, because transparency seems to be an issue among our guests, and certainly Mr. Easter has extended that conversation quite a lot.

I thought I'd do a little research. I went back to when Mr. Easter's party was the party in power. They did not have a lot of free trade agreements on which to base my conclusions because that wasn't as much the focus, but to be fair they did some, with Chile, Costa Rica, and Israel. I was struck by the fact that the Liberal government of the day was exceptionally careful not to share information. They knew if they had to do a deal there were going to be negotiations and discussions that had to be in private.

It's very curious that now that the member opposite is in a different position, he seems to make a different argument.

I'd like to ask Mr. Doyle a question. You made the comment in your testimony that you're concerned you haven't seen the text. Has it hurt you so far?

[Richard Doyle]

I wouldn't know.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Let's come back to what you do know. You do know the trade agreements—and I will say that I'm asking for clarity here—that we have put in place as a Conservative government. Tell me which of those agreements have hurt the dairy farmers of Canada.

[Richard Doyle]

As I said before, none.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

There are none. Just to be clear, there is not one. You can't name one.

[Richard Doyle]

That's correct.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

All right. If you can't name one, and we work on the basis of good faith, I would say the dairy farmers have done reasonably okay. Would you suggest that might be true, Mr. Doyle?

I know that when you have your discussions, you have them in good faith, since you said in all the negotiations that have been done so far Canada has been very careful to try to protect the dairy farmers' interests as well as the interests of those in other areas of agriculture and, I would even say, in other areas of industry across our country, though they are not protected in terms of various supply management considerations.

[Richard Doyle]

That's true.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I say that, Chair, because notwithstanding the lack of transparency, it would appear, it doesn't seem to appear to have hurt the dairy farmers to this point. I would say to you, to be fair to the party prior, that even when they didn't tell you anything in those days, you still did okay, or you didn't do so okay with the Liberals. Is that what you're saying?

[Richard Doyle]

I might disagree. It's not that I did okay or not okay.

In the Uruguay Round and a number of these negotiations on the NAFTA and the CUSTA, we did have access to the documents. Things took place under confidentiality rules, but we did have committees and structure through which we, as experts in our own respective fields, could do the proper job of advising the negotiators and the government by having true access, although on a very highly secret and confidential basis, which is not the case right now.