Evidence of meeting #122 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cost.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Evans Thibeault  Vice-President and Assistant General Manager, Groupe LAR Inc.
Jean-Denis Toupin  Executive Director, Constructions Proco Inc.
Michael Bilton  Co-Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers
Jonathon Azzopardi  Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers
Terry Sheehan  Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.
Tim Clutterbuck  President, ASW Steel Inc.
Robert Closner  Vice-President and General Counsel, Boart Longyear
Eric Humphrey  Director, Global Sourcing, Boart Longyear
John Young  Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Welded Tube of Canada Corp.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Good morning.

Welcome back to all MPs after a week in your ridings. Today we're going to continue on with our study on the impact of tariffs on Canadians and Canadian companies. This is probably our third or fourth meeting. This afternoon we're also going to have a meeting with the Minister of Finance. That will be right after votes at four o'clock.

Without further ado we have witnesses with us. We have two by video conference.

Good morning, gentlemen.

We usually start off with video. We hear them first in case we have difficulties. You are two different companies, right? You have five minutes each.

We'll start off with Mr. Thibeault. The floor is yours.

11 a.m.

Evans Thibeault Vice-President and Assistant General Manager, Groupe LAR Inc.

Good morning.

Our thanks to the committee for giving us the opportunity to express our views on these issues, which are crucial for our company.

Since 1942, the Groupe LAR has specialized in the design, manufacture and installation of very large-scale welded fabrications. Our main clients are in the hydroelectric, aluminum and mining sectors. The Groupe LAR serves all Canadian provinces and occasionally does work abroad. We have three plants in Quebec and one in British Columbia. Our head office, where more than 250 people are employed, is located in Métabetchouan, in Saguenay—Lac Saint-Jean, Quebec. We buy most of our steel in Canada and that steel is the raw material in the manufacture of our products. The steel is normally bought in the form of plate.

The price of steel has held between $0.40 and $0.60 per pound for a long time, both in Canada and abroad. Now, the price in Canada is over $1, whereas it is about $0.60-$0.70 on the world market. The Canadian market is therefore out of balance with the world market.

After the American president’s announcement of a 25% surtax on Canadian steel, American clients began to buy as much Canadian steel as possible before the surtax came into effect. At the same time, Canadian steel suppliers rushed to increase the price of their steel, and, because of the rare circumstances caused by the massive purchases by American clients and various other reasons, the price now hovers around $1.

As of now, it is very difficult to obtain steel from Canadian suppliers because their stocks are low and because of the per-pound price which is now moving past $1. In addition, for the majority of our clients, clauses adjusting the price of steel are not allowed.

Groupe LAR needs steel in order to fulfill our contracts, but there are insufficient stocks in Canada. In our recent tendering process, all Canadian steel mills, except one, replied that they had run out of inventory and they did not even bid. The only one to do so asked for a price above $1, with delivery in at least seven months, where normally it’s a few weeks.

The financial risks for companies in the industrial sector will increase greatly if the price of steel becomes more volatile. Financial products to cover this kind of risk—options and futures contracts—are underdeveloped in this sector. The market does not willingly accept price adjustment clauses. Both could become major concerns in the future.

If the price of Canadian steel remains out of line and if our government imposes tariffs in order to protect it, Canadian manufacturers will have to pay so much that it will be very difficult for them to remain competitive globally, wherever the steel comes from. It is important to keep in mind that large companies do business with the lowest bidder, whether from China, America, Canada or anywhere else. So some Canadian suppliers could end up considering moving their production to other countries in order to remain competitive.

All this raises two questions. First, will finished steel products coming into Canada from our foreign competitors also be taxed to take into account the new tariffs that protect the price of Canadian steel?

Second, will refund programs be flexible enough to allow Canadian suppliers to remain competitive on the world market?

In summary, we believe that imposing tariffs on imports would be appropriate if the price of Canadian steel were competitive, but that is not the case. As Canadian suppliers, we are harmed by the situation and forced to pay too much for our raw material, which means that we can no longer be competitive.

I am now ready to answer your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Merci, Monsieur Thibeault.

I have just one question before we move on. How many employees do you have at Groupe LAR?

11:05 a.m.

Vice-President and Assistant General Manager, Groupe LAR Inc.

Evans Thibeault

There are 250 employees.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you.

We'll move over to Constructions Proco Inc.

Mr. Toupin, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Jean-Denis Toupin Executive Director, Constructions Proco Inc.

Good morning.

The Groupe Proco is a general and specialist contractor with a head office located in Saint-Nazaire, in Saguenay—Lac Saint-Jean, Quebec. In total, the Groupe Proco has 325 employees on different construction sites in Quebec.

Our main raw material is steel. Each year, we buy around $20 million worth of steel from the United States, from Canada and from Europe. Our sales come to $85 million. We have two main operations. The first is a construction company that installs metal structures. The second is a manufacturing company that mostly manufactures steel structures, bridge structures, welded products and industrial structures.

The customs tariffs imposed in recent months first had a direct consequence on the price of our raw material, especially for projects requiring the rapid supply of plates that are relatively thick and long. Historically, these plates come from the United States, where they are available with a short delivery time. In recent months, the price of that raw material went from $0.60 per pound to $1 per pound in August 2018. This is an increase over and above the 25% in surtaxes, because it results from a combination of factors, including a decrease in the stock of raw material caused by the uncertainties of a trade war. In Quebec, the steel market has reacted to this new reality, and the price of steel coming from Europe is now similar to the price of American steel. Shaped steel structures have gone from about $0.50 per pound to $0.65 per pound.

We are also seeing direct impacts on the profitability of our contracts. We complete between 80 and 100 contracts per year, almost all of them requiring steel. We signed contracts last April, May and June on the basis of the price of steel at the time. The steel for those contracts arrived in Canada after July 1, and we had to absorb the increased costs of this raw material, without being able to recover them from our customers. This meant significant and direct financial losses for our company in the order of several hundred thousand dollars. Of course, we explored the possibility of being compensated through a surtax refund request but, at first sight, it seems difficult to do so because the increase in the price of steel is not solely due to the tariffs. In addition, Canadian distributors are hesitant to provide us with the exact amount they paid in surtaxes because, in so doing, they would reveal their cost price and their profit margins.

There have also been implications on large development projects in Canada. We regularly assist a number of major project developers to determine the construction budgets for their future projects. I am thinking of mining projects like Mason Graphite, Arianne Phosphate, Rio Tinto Alcan, Métaux BlackRock and Nemaska Lithium, and of the Réseau express métropolitain (REM) project. All those projects have a major use of steel in common. The budgets that we have developed with those clients and submitted in recent years are now all underestimated. As you know, those budgets are used by the developers to establish the feasibility of their projects and to secure the financing they require. We are very much afraid that the cost increases in the supply of steel to Quebec and Canada will harm the implementation of projects like these that create jobs and wealth.

I must also mention the major adverse effects on the competitiveness of Canadian manufacturers. The world price of steel, in Asia, India and Europe, seems to be hovering around $0.60 per pound instead of $1. There is therefore a strong possibility, more likely a certainty, that the steel components in future major construction projects in Canada will be manufactured abroad, given the cheaper supply. The increased cost of steel in Canada will force developers of major projects to go to foreign suppliers despite the significant capacity of Canadian manufacturers. We are already hearing some developers raise this possibility. Given this possible threat, and if the situation surrounding the price of steel does not change, we will have no other choice but to consider moving our production to a location where steel is more easily available.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you very much.

We'll now move over to the Canadian Association of Moldmakers.

Welcome, gentlemen. It's not your first time to our committee. Thanks for taking the time to come and visit us again.

You have the floor for five minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Michael Bilton Co-Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers

Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

Good morning and thank you again. My name is Mike Bilton. I'm the co-chairman of the Canadian Association of Moldmakers.

CAMM, as we call it, represents a member base that carries one of the most in-demand skilled trades to the success and prosperity of our valued automotive sector and manufacturing. We support, facilitate business opportunities, educate and foster over 215 tier two level tool and mould shops in Canada, including 13,000 plus proud and highly skilled tradespersons across Ontario, Quebec and all of Canada.

Today, we are here to discuss the ongoing implications of steel and aluminum tariffs. My chairman, Jonathon, is here to speak more specifically about the direct cost implications to his business, like others, including operating and carrying costs for the tier two level.

In support, I am here, however, to discuss the other side of it, which is about how his overall cost models affect my business at the tier one level. As large parts suppliers, tier one companies are typically the customers of nearly all tier two companies, as tier three are to tier two, in the same fashion.

Of course, at the top of the chain, the actual OEMs are my customer, the auto manufacturer. It's no secret that today's OEMs' direct supply basis is constantly being challenged, with mandatory cost reduction strategies, to remain competitive in various product segments and components. Setting aside a new realm of root material tariffs, these challenges are real, as is the struggle.

Clearly, steel and aluminum are the main materials in the construction of the vehicles of today and tomorrow. That's obvious. Separate from that though, I'd like to bring light to the enormity of tooling and equipment needed to create these components and a vast array of others that all come together to create our masterpiece.

The manufacturing costs of these tooling and equipment assemblies, cells, and line side post-operative systems will often represent north of 60% of a program's budget, with very little wiggle room to eliminate waste and streamline our path to profitability, however small those margins tend to be. This is our reality.

The global movement into Industry 4.0 and now, into 5.0, which is the next generation of manufacturing as we know it, is changing at a breakneck pace. More specifically, the need for tier one manufacturing plants to morph and retool into this next-generation facility relies profoundly on implementing automated work stations to create parts and widgets. It's the out-of-control rising costs of these automated tools and equipment that I'm referring to.

The main ingredients in this tooling and equipment are indeed—you guessed it—steel and aluminum. Without a modern type of automation and shifting conventional manufacturing property and equity to this new style, there will be bad news for folks like me in tier one. Bad news means rapidly rising cost structures and falling behind in market competitiveness.

This is not to mention the burden placed on the automaker, when even their own parts suppliers are forced to close doors, which is happening, because they cannot remain profitable enough to supply. Rising operating costs are always the culprit, especially in a business that barely survives on single-digit margins.

From my perspective at the tier one level, contract pricing from our automation supplier companies is up 10% to 15% and in some cases, where steel and aluminum material content is much higher, I'm seeing increases of 25% to 35%. This is not only for automation suppliers but also for mould suppliers under our umbrella at CAMM, who are exactly the suppliers that CAMM's membership consists of. This is unacceptable.

I cannot sustain a competitive business model for my OEM customers with these increased costs in my own supply base, for which most costs are forcefully absorbed by me or the automaker. Already, direct results to a tier one supplier are elevated annual mandatory givebacks.

Trade incentive and duty relief programs and the rules by which they are to abide are unclear and not easy to follow. The administration and receipt of relief funds can take up to four to six months. These regulatory challenges are part and parcel of a continued struggle, by-products of which continue to fight to remain competitive, with a cash flow burden that forces already single-digit margins to be very stressed. Factoring unavoidable tariff costs into our pricing models to our customers upstream is even more of a challenge if we are to be considered a supplier of choice.

Our manufacturing sector is also now at the mercy of reduced government funding initiatives, such as SR and ED. As we know, reinvestment of R and D funds back into a business to allow it to partner with tier ones and automakers on advanced technologies is one of the most advanced qualities in a company to be selected as a supplier of choice by an automaker. I can assure you that it matters greatly in the eyes of the top of the automotive food chain. North American, Japanese, Chinese and Korean automakers are all alike. This is a common denominator that we're seeing.

At this time, with a broad stroke, I'd like to echo the volumes of facts and figures, points of concern, quantifiable data submissions, resources and study findings that have been passed along from our Canadian business owners and stakeholders who, without doubt, have already felt the heavy burden of the imposition of recent steel and aluminum tariffs. This is felt not only by an enormous automotive and manufacturing base but also by aviation, aerospace, military and marine industries, or pretty much every industry that requires us to rely upon a common foundation of tooling equipment materials of aluminum and steel, currently and in the future, to create product.

In closing, in consideration of South Korea's successful negotiation of steel and aluminum tariff removal with the U.S. in March 2018, the Canadian Association of Moldmakers poses this question to the federal government: What are you doing to negotiate a similar outcome to ensure the prosperity of our Canadian businesses?

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir.

We're now going to open up a dialogue with the MPs, and we're going to start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Allison, you have the floor.

October 16th, 2018 / 11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Thank you, once again, to our witnesses for being here today. It's great to see you guys again. I know Jonathon and I had a chance to spend some time in Windsor this summer.

I guess the question I have—and I've heard this from all the witnesses this morning—is about how difficult it is to access any kind of duty relief or duty deferral, whatever you want to call it.

I need to understand. When we talked in the summer, the point was, “Listen. Two to three months is all we can handle—four months maximum—if this doesn't get solved.” In other words, if we don't get a deal, which would include the removal of tariffs on steel and aluminum, it's a four- to six-month-...if we qualify. How on earth are we going to survive?

We're now into month four. I would just like your thoughts. I think we're at a critical point. You guys were stressed when I talked to you in the summertime when we hadn't had this for two or three months.

Talk to us about how long we can sustain this. I'm hearing people say that they're going to move plants to the States if they can. I realize that a guy who has 20 employees can't, but somebody who has 50 million and above maybe can. Where are your actual people in your organizations?

If they're a supplier, that stuff can be done in the States, and that may be a possibility because they're trying to keep their supply chain intact as cheaply as possible for these OEMs, etc.

11:15 a.m.

Jonathon Azzopardi Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers

First, we would like to applaud the federal government on a good negotiation of the USMCA. That is good. There are provisions in there that will guarantee some growth and some prosperity in Canada, although we have to go on record as saying that without the removal of steel and aluminum tariffs, the agreement really isn't worth anything to us until it goes into place.

That being said, we are feeling the full brunt of the burden of the steel and aluminum tariffs, and the BDC and the EDC agreements that you have in place are really not working. They will not have the positive impact that you're looking for because they don't make financial or business sense.

We feel that taking funding from BDC is nothing more than financing the federal government. What we feel is that there's still a cost there. There is no guarantee of the removal of the tariffs. Therefore, we can't factor them out of our costs, so we're going to continue to leave them in. If those costs are left in, the equation will continue to make Canadian suppliers uncompetitive. In a very competitive market already, we will have no choice but to find and seek out other competitive measures, and right now, we're not finding those in Canada.

It will be a short time before Canadian suppliers will start to look for alternatives, and we already are. Giving us the opportunity to take loans is not a good business model, short term or long term, and we don't need it. If we want to take loans, we'll go get loans from our own banks. We don't need the government's support to support you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

I guess my question is this: What does not being able to deal with steel and aluminum tariffs in this country do to manufacturing, all things being equal?

11:15 a.m.

Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers

Jonathon Azzopardi

Well, right now, specific to our industry, we've been monitoring aluminum and steel pricing for the last two years. In two years, it's already gone up 50%. With the impending possibility of tariffs, we saw a 25% increase between January and July, making the total increase 75%.

What does that mean to an SME? In our industry alone, we average about a 10% profit margin. This is approximately 6% to 12% against the bottom line. That alone will basically negate and make us very vulnerable by eliminating the entire profit margin for our industry. That will be disastrous, and we can't have that happening, so we're looking for alternatives. These are alternatives in a very desperate time, so we're looking for alternatives quickly. Right now that means finding alternatives overseas. It means that we have to possibly relocate if these cannot be removed.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Did any of your members, or your company specifically, receive any kind of duty relief, duty drawback that you're aware of?

11:15 a.m.

Chairman, Canadian Association of Moldmakers

Jonathon Azzopardi

It's quite the opposite. What we're seeing right now is that SMEs are finding that the duty relief is such a burden and an administrative nightmare that they're abandoning the opportunity, and right now, they just don't have any other alternatives.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Once again, as I heard from owners, they are working from 8 o'clock in the morning until about 8 o'clock at night trying to drive their businesses. Then they're spending the rest of the evening trying to figure out how to get some kind of relief, which they're not actually able to get—and which, by the way, may actually show up in four to six months when they're already out of business. Therein lies the challenge.

I know I have a short period of time, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Your time is pretty well up.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Come on, I have 30 seconds, and I apologize to my colleagues from Quebec, because I also wanted to talk about that. Is that similar?

I heard someone mention of trying to source products from other countries. Is it possible that you guys may have to relocate?

I apologize. I know there's a short period of time here.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Give a quick answer, please.

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Constructions Proco Inc.

Jean-Denis Toupin

We can either relocate the plants or get supplies of steel processed in the United States and work with European or Asian manufacturers to import processed steel to Canada.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you.

We will go over to the Liberals now.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have the floor.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters.

My first question is for Groupe LAR. You said you have 250 employees. How many of them are in British Columbia?

11:20 a.m.

Vice-President and Assistant General Manager, Groupe LAR Inc.

Evans Thibeault

At the moment, in our plant in British Columbia. we have 25 to 30 employees working on a major hydroelectric project called Site C. We are at the beginning of the process. The number of employees will certainly increase significantly in the next months, hence the importance of a supply of steel in order to fulfill contracts whose prices were fixed in advance. The challenge with supply is significant too.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you.

My next question is for Proco. You said that you import steel, that you use Canadian, European and U.S. steel. Can you give me a breakdown of what percentage of the steel you use is Canadian, European and American?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Constructions Proco Inc.

Jean-Denis Toupin

That depends on the type of contract. It is quite easy to find shapes and plates in Canada, but, with bridge construction projects, the plates are longer, thicker and bigger all round. They are not available in Canada. Almost all the steel we buy to build bridges, mainly in Quebec, comes from the United States because of the delivery time and the dimensions of the plates. About 50% of our purchases comes from the United States and the rest comes from Canada or Europe. Steel used for bridges comes mostly from the United States.