Evidence of meeting #14 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Duncan Davies  Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council
Susan Yurkovich  President, B.C. Lumber Trade Council
Kevin Edgson  Member, CLTA, President and Chief Executive Officer, Eacom Timber, Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance
Cameron Milne  Fibre Supply Manager, Harmac Pacific
Harry Nelson  Assistant Professor, University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, As an Individual

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. We welcome back members of Parliament after their week in the constituency. For anybody who is just visiting our committee, welcome.

We have a very busy agenda for our committee this session. We are dealing with finishing up the European agreement and we have the TPP. We also have other issues.

One very important issue, which is ongoing, is of course the softwood lumber issue. Our committee has already had a meeting with what I guess you would call the east side: we had Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes already visit our committee with some submissions. Today we welcome the crew from out west, in beautiful British Columbia. We were there in our TPP travels and we saw some of you out there.

I would like also to apologize for pushing this meeting forward. We had a situation, and I really appreciate how you witnesses accommodated it for us.

On that note, today's meeting is going to be split into two hours. The first hour is with the people we have in front of us. In the second hour, testimony will be via satellite.

With us today from British Columbia, from the B.C. Lumber Trade Council, we have Susan Yurkovich, and I have Duncan Davies.

Do you have two hats on today?

8:45 a.m.

Duncan Davies Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Yes, sir, I do.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

You're still only going to have five minutes.

8:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

No, you're welcome to jump in any time, but I see that you're with B.C. Lumber Trade Council and also the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance. Welcome, Mr. Davies.

We have also Kevin Edgson from the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance.

Folks, welcome again.

What we do is give each group five minutes. You can split it or do whatever you want to do with the five minutes.

I'll start off with the B.C. Lumber Trade Council.

Who is going to speak?

8:45 a.m.

Susan Yurkovich President, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

That would be me. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Susan Yurkovich. I'm really pleased to be here today on behalf of the B.C. Lumber Trade Council.

Duncan is the co-chair of the B.C. Lumber Trade Council, which is an organization that was established to advocate for the B.C. forest sector on trade-related matters, but our organization, as you'll see today, works collaboratively with provincial associations and lumber companies across the country as a member of the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance.

We appreciate the interest of the international trade committee in softwood lumber. It's an issue that is critically important to B.C. and to the forest products-producing regions across the country. Indeed, it's important to all Canadians.

I'd like to start this morning with just a little information about B.C.'s forest industry.

Forestry matters in British Columbia. It continues to be one of the key drivers of our provincial economy, contributing about $12 billion annually to the GDP. Taxes, stumpage, and fees from our industry also provide annual revenues of about $2.5 billion. Those revenues, of course, go to help support critical citizen services, such as health and education.

The industry is one of the largest employers in the province, with about 145,000 people from Fort St. John to Vancouver deriving their living either directly or indirectly from the sector. That's about one out of every 16 jobs in our province. Many of those people are employed in our 300 wood products manufacturing facilities located throughout the province, but they also work in forest management, in research and innovation, and in silvaculture.

We're very proud of the fact that the fibre flowing to our manufacturing facilities comes from sustainably managed forests. At 52 million hectares, B.C. has more forested land under independent environmental certification than any other country in the world. This fibre is used to create high-quality forest products that are shipped around the globe. In 2014, the last year for which we have full data, our forest products exports from British Columbia totalled about $12.4 billion, about half of it coming from softwood lumber. B.C. is by far the largest producer of softwood lumber in the country, and we are the largest shipper of softwood to the U.S. market.

In recent years we've worked very hard to diversity our exports and reduce our reliance on the U.S. market. Through a partnership with Natural Resources Canada, the Province of British Columbia, and industry, this effort has in fact produced very significant results. Our lumber shipments to China have increased from about 300 million board feet in 2005 to more than 2.5 billion board feet in 2014. We're marketing our products throughout Asia, and we're starting to explore India as well.

In spite of this effort, the U.S., which is a natural market given its proximity and its culture of building with wood, remains our largest market for softwood lumber. B.C. accounts for half of the volume shipped to the U.S. from Canada, which is why maintaining predictable access to the U.S. marketplace is critical for the future health of our industry.

Canada and the U.S. have had a long history of disputes over softwood lumber. They stem from claims from U.S. producers that our industry is subsidized, largely because of a difference in ownership of the lands in our two countries. In the U.S., the majority of timberlands are privately owned, whereas in Canada timberlands are generally owned by the provincial governments. U.S. interests have alleged that because timberlands in Canada are owned by the crown, they are subsidized. This is not the case; however, these kinds of allegations have resulted in decades of the U.S. implementing protectionist measures over their marketplace.

In a perfect world we would have free trade in softwood lumber between our two countries, but the fact of the matter is that in the last 35 years, free trade in softwood has only existed for about two of those years. During this period, there have been four countervailing duty and anti-dumping trade cases and three managed trade agreements, the last of which expired last October. Today we find ourselves in a standstill period that prevents the U.S. from launching trade action until October of this year. This gives us just a few short months to see whether a new agreement that works for both Canada and the U.S. can be reached.

Some in the country may not support this effort, preferring to let the litigation process proceed or simply wishing that free trade was achievable when in reality it is not. We in B.C. believe that it's imperative to work hard to see if a new agreement is possible in order to avoid the uncertainty that ongoing litigation creates, along with the disruption it causes for producers and consumers on both sides of the border. The time to do that work is now.

Finding a resolution to the dispute will not be easy. We know that Minister Freeland and her officials are working hard to engage with their U.S. counterparts and that Premier Clark has made this a top priority issue for B.C., but it will take leadership and goodwill in Washington as well as Ottawa and in boardrooms of industry across both nations to find a lasting resolution to this dispute.

Our hope is that with a concerted effort from both sides, we will be able to reach agreement, but if that's not possible, we are also prepared to work closely with the Government of Canada and industry across the country to rigorously defend our forest practices and policies against any trade litigation that the U.S. may launch.

Canada and the U.S. enjoy the world's largest trading relationship. This relationship should not be fettered by an ongoing dispute over softwood lumber. Finding a resolution needs to be a national priority to ensure that the forestry sector in B.C. and Canada can continue to contribute to the national economy and to the economies of hundreds of communities across our nation.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you very much. Now we're going to move over to the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance with Mr. Edgson...Mr. Davies.

8:55 a.m.

Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Duncan Davies

Thank you for the invitation to appear here today.

My name is Duncan Davies. I am the president and CEO of Interfor Corporation, one of the largest lumber companies in the world, based in Vancouver. I am also co-chair of the B.C. Lumber Trade Council and co-chair of the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance.

I'm joined here this morning by my colleague Kevin Edgson, the president and CEO of Eacom Timber.

The Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance was formed in 2001 to present a collective voice for the Canadian softwood lumber industry with respect to the U.S. industry's claim of injury from Canadian softwood lumber imports. Today the membership of CLTA includes provincial associations and companies from British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, and Quebec, representing 70% of Canada's softwood lumber production that is exported to the U.S. market. The CLTA regularly consults with Global Affairs Canada to provide constructive input regarding trade matters on softwood lumber.

Our industry is vital to the national economy and to the economies of many forest-dependent communities across Canada. This sector generates approximately 370,000 direct and indirect jobs and contributes more than $20 billion to our national GDP. The vast majority of Canada's forest products are exported to global markets, which makes ongoing access to those markets critically important from a national economic standpoint.

For many generations, Canada and the United States have been engaged in a dispute over access to the U.S. market for softwood lumber. The dispute can be traced back to the late 1800s. Over the last 35 years, it has resulted in four rounds of trade litigation. The fact is that the U.S. can and does control the access to their market through their trade laws, which are designed to protect U.S. interests. For that reason, over the last three decades our industry has either operated under a negotiated treaty arrangement or has been engaged in litigation, as has been the case for 33 of the last 35 years.

In recent years, the CLTA member companies have been subject to the 2006 softwood lumber agreement. In the five years leading up to that agreement, the Canadian industry faced punishing countervailing and anti-dumping duties on production shipped to the U.S. By the time the agreement was reached in 2006, the Canadian industry had more than $5 billion on deposit with the U.S. Treasury Department, creating a massive financial burden for companies in our industry.

Entering into the 2006 softwood lumber agreement required Canada and Canadian softwood lumber producers to carefully weigh the costs associated with the agreement against the benefit of being able to access that marketplace.

Some have characterized the 2006 SLA as a bad deal or contrary to the interests of Canadians. I respectfully disagree.

The 2006 SLA provided certainty of access to the U.S. market during one of the worst economic downturns we've seen since the Depression. It encouraged the development of offshore markets and it provided an opportunity for the industries in Canada and the U.S. to work together constructively to grow the market for our products against competing products such as steel, cement, and composites. It allowed companies like mine to make investment decisions about our plants in Canada that have been highly beneficial to the economic viability of those facilities, and to provide greater security of employment for the people employed in our operations. While the 2006 agreement was not perfect, it did provide certainty of access to producers on both sides of the border for nearly a decade.

While we may all prefer to have free trade in lumber, that is not our reality. The U.S. has the right, under its trade laws, to control access to its market. The choice we face is between managed trade and litigation. Managed trade agreements, if reasonable, can work to the benefit of producers in both countries. Without an agreement in place, we will return to the costly path of litigation to resolve this dispute.

Faced with these two options, the members of the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance believe it's in our collective interest to work constructively to find a new agreement that is fair and acceptable to producers on both sides of the border. We will continue to work collaboratively with Minister Freeland and her officials as they engage with their U.S. counterparts to try to achieve this goal. However, if the U.S. approach is punitive and if a new agreement cannot be reached, we are equally prepared to work alongside our national government to aggressively defend our industry against any potential legal challenges brought by the United States, as we have done successfully in the past.

Eight weeks ago, President Obama and Prime Minister Trudeau underscored the need to find a long-term solution to this trade irritant between our two countries. We agree. This dispute should be settled once and for all, and the time to do that is now. It will take political and industry leadership from all sides to find a way forward. For our part, the members of the CLTA stand ready to work with all parties to help achieve this goal.

Thank you for your interest. I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have on this subject.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

Thanks to both of you for those submissions.

Before we go on to questioning, I'd like to welcome some of our visiting MPs here. I'm sure they have a lot at stake in their ridings with their softwood lumber.

Gord Johns, Richard Cannings, Alistair MacGregor, and Todd Doherty, welcome to our very active and exciting trade committee.

We'll start off our questioning with the Conservatives.

Mr. Hoback, you have five minutes.

May 3rd, 2016 / 9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Chair, I think if we have any more people around this table, we'll have to charge admission so that they can participate in this esteemed committee.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

We'll have to keep an eye on our cookies today, that's for sure.

9 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

First I would like to thank the witnesses for their understanding with regard to the cancellation of our committee meeting. We appreciate the fact that you weren't given lots of notice, and I hope you understand why we had to do that. I want to thank you for coming back, because this is a very important issue. It deserves the recognition and the hearing that we're having today.

Moving right into the questions, first, if we look at the B.C. sector and the B.C. industry and at the existing agreement in place, we're x number of years moved forward. What should be in the agreement today versus yesterday? What type of changes should be made? Is the industry structurally the same way today as it was back then?

Another example might be the ownership of mills now in B.C. and the Canadian ownership of mills in the U.S. Does that have an impact on how that agreement should be struck?

Maybe I'll lay that on the floor for both of you to answer.

9 a.m.

Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Duncan Davies

From an industry structure standpoint, I don't think the fact that a number of Canadian companies, including mine, have invested in the U.S. is really a pertinent issue with respect to the structure of the SLA.

We believe, both in British Columbia and nationally, that the structure of the 2006 SLA, which would be characterized as a bottom-of-the-market structure that provided provinces with the options to use either a tax-based system or a volume-based restriction as the basis of their access to the U.S. market, was a good structure. I think it meets the respective needs and interests of the different provinces under that optionality provision.

I think economic circumstances have changed since 2006. There are opportunities to modernize the agreement and make it possibly more effective than it was under the old structure. Susan described the root of this issue as based on timber pricing as it relates to land ownership issues in the U.S. The real factor here is really what happens at the bottom of the market, particularly when the Canadian dollar is weak, and a tax-based structure or volume-based structure that limits access or reduces access of Canadian production to the U.S. market when the market is weak is the right kind of a structure. It makes much more sense, from our standpoint, than a volume-based structure.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I know we had some groups that wanted to change what they'd chosen after a year or two into it.

9 a.m.

Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Duncan Davies

Yes. They can. Under the old agreement, a province could choose I think twice during the term of the last agreement. A province that chose one option was able to switch to the other option.

That's not a bad arrangement, from our standpoint, because it allows provinces to adjust to changing circumstances as it pertains to their operations.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Okay.

As far as outside of Canada and the U.S. is concerned, what do you see in terms of actively pursuing other markets that would offset what you possibly could lose in the U.S.?

I look at the beef sector and what happened to us by being so reliant on one market. Of course, they have now diversified around the world. What are you guys doing in order to do that, and how do both TPP and other trade agreements impact that?

9 a.m.

President, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Susan Yurkovich

British Columbia in particular has been doing a lot of work, as I mentioned, to grow our markets, and a particularly big success story is what we have been able to do in Asia. If we had not been able to build those markets, in the post-2008 world it would have been even much more difficult for the sector to move through.

We have actually been very successful in growing our markets in China. Of course, we've been very well established in Japan as well since the 1970s, and we still sell a lot there. We have a small office in Korea. We're sending product there. As I said, now we're starting to explore options in India, a very different market with very different logistics and different species that are of interest. We're just starting to explore that market.

In terms of those programs done in combination with Natural Resources in Canada, and in our case the Province of British Columbia through Forestry Innovation Investment, we couldn't do those as industry alone, and those are really important programs to try to diversify our market. However, the reality, frankly, is the U.S. needs our lumber, and it's a natural market as well, so I don't expect we would be moving completely off it.

I don't know, Kevin, if you want to speak to the—

9:05 a.m.

Kevin Edgson Member, CLTA, President and Chief Executive Officer, Eacom Timber, Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance

I would like to speak.

For clarification, Eacom is based in Montreal. It's the largest lumber producer in Ontario, so I have an eastern perspective on this.

Foreign markets are fantastic for the whole Canadian industry.

We will never ship a stick of wood to Japan, China, or India, but this is a commodity product, and if part of the production flows overseas, that benefits all of us. The foreign markets should not be viewed as a B.C. advantage; it's an advantage to the Canadian industry. It should be supported by the entire Canadian industry, and it should be viewed in that light. We benefited in Ontario and Quebec, and our jobs were saved because of the development of those markets and the supply that came out of B.C.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

We're going to move over to the Liberals and Mr. Dhaliwal.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters. I appreciate your coming, Susan and Duncan, and the work that you're doing.

I'm taking over from Randy. As Duncan mentioned, you are trying to see.... On this 100-day period that we have for the negotiation between the U.S. and Canada, what would you like to see accomplished in that agreement that we are going to form? Also, Duncan mentioned that we need the political will of the industry and of the government. What can the Canadian industry and both of our governments do to encourage that deal?

It's for both of you, Susan and Duncan.

9:05 a.m.

President, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Susan Yurkovich

Obviously, we have this 100-day period and we think we should be working very hard towards a new agreement. It might be a modernized agreement, as Duncan has said. Certainly the 2006 agreement—the basic structure of the agreement, the optionality of the agreement, having provinces that had a volume constraint and others that had a tax—worked. The agreement actually worked for a long period of time. Of course, it was a nine-year agreement, but it was a seven-year agreement with a two-year extension, and both parties agreed to the extension, so for a long period of time, that agreement worked.

We would like to be at the 100 days with very significant work having been done towards a modernized agreement. That is what British Columbia would like to see within that 100-day period, but you need to have the willingness of both parties in order to achieve that.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Some people also suggest that the lumber industry should not rush into this agreement in the next 100 days. What is your position on that? Do you agree with those people? If we do not reach an agreement within the 100 days, what are the risks and what are the implications that you see?

9:05 a.m.

Co-Chair, BCLT, President and Chief Executive Officer, Interfor Corporation, B.C. Lumber Trade Council

Duncan Davies

There are a couple of points. First of all, the history of the softwood lumber dispute shows clearly that this matter is never resolved unless the president and the prime minister both take a direct interest in finding a solution. Minister Freeland and Prime Minister Trudeau have both been very active on this file since the election and the appointment of the new government last fall.

First things first: raising the profile of this issue with the U.S. is a critically important step in finding a solution to the file. That's number one.

Number two, if we don't make progress during these 100 days or in the period leading up to the expiry of the standstill that was built into the 2006 agreement, which expires in the middle of October of this year, we would fully expect the U.S. industry to petition their government to bring another trade case against the Canadian industry.

While I'd like to think that saner heads will prevail, the practice in the U.S. is that when their industry petitions for a trade case, the U.S. trade authorities fall into line and institute a trade case. As a result, we would expect that we would move back into a period of time in which the U.S. government would investigate practices in Canada. In all likelihood, we would end up facing some form of countervail and anti-dumping duties next spring, and then we'd be faced with ongoing litigation to deal with that and trying to negotiate an agreement when significant duties are hanging over our head during that period of time.

I think there's significant value in trying to move this thing forward before we get into that type of situation. I think that's why on March 10, when the Prime Minister met with the President, the 100-day period of time for officials in the two countries to work together to try to develop a framework was put in place. Our hope is that by the end of that 100 days, which I think is the middle of June, we'll see a clear framework of a new agreement in place, subject only to refinement and the proper legal papering of the agreement. That would be our hope.

If it goes much beyond that, I think U.S. political cycles will be such that it will be very difficult for anybody to accomplish very much before the standstill period expires.

9:10 a.m.

Member, CLTA, President and Chief Executive Officer, Eacom Timber, Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance

Kevin Edgson

The supercalendered paper litigation going on right now is very clearly what we can expect to see on the lumber side. It's not a principle; it's about protecting and enhancing profitability south of the border. If you want a good indication of what happens, regardless of your perspective on free trade, look at those who are affected by the SC paper trade issue.