Evidence of meeting #31 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was change.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Courtney Howard  Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment
Craig Yeo  As an Individual
David Usher  Director General, Trade Negotiations, Global Affairs Canada
Jason Flint  Director General, Policy, Communications and Regulatory Affairs, Department of Health
Sara Neamtz  Acting Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
Kim Dayman-Rutkus  Director, Centre for Regulatory and Compliance Strategies, Department of Health

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody. Welcome back.

We are going to continue with our study on the TPP and the challenges and the opportunities that the TPP gives to Canadians.

Welcome to the crew from Yellowknife.

Just to give you a little update, we've been travelling the country since last year. We did most of the provinces. We still have Atlantic Canada to do next week. We will do the territories—you guys—today, and we will probably hear from the Yukon and maybe some others from the territories, some mining associations, and different groups. Sometime in October we will be finishing our study and will probably be presenting to Parliament next year.

That said, welcome. You were already briefed on how we proceed. We have members of Parliament here from all parts of the country and we will hear your submissions. If you can keep them to five minutes, we would appreciate it, then we will have lots of time for a dialogue with you.

My name is Mark Eyking. I'm the chair.

We are good to go. Who wants to start? Maybe it could be the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment. Courtney, do you want to go ahead?

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Courtney Howard Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment

Sure.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you and welcome.

11:05 a.m.

Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment

Dr. Courtney Howard

Thank you for having us speak.

My name is Dr. Courtney Howard. I am the climate-health board lead for the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment, otherwise know as CAPE. CAPE is Canada's only physicians' education and advocacy organization that is committed to protecting the health of people by protecting the planet. I'm also an emergency physician here in Yellowknife.

I received the invitation to speak only about three days ago, so this analysis does not represent my having read 6,000 pages of text. It represents a literature review of what the public health community has written about this issue in the peer-reviewed literature and some discussions with some of the lead authors, as well as looking at that information through the lens of environmental health.

The first thing to understand—this wasn't clear to me when I was going through medical school—is that the social and ecological determinants of health actually have a much greater impact on people's overall health status than does the health care system. I can assure you that when I figured that out, after having spent 12 years becoming a doctor, I was a little bit frustrated, which is why I now do this work. What it means is that anything that impacts determinants of health—such as water, food, the ability to have housing, and income—have a much bigger proportion of impact on overall health status than anything I do, unfortunately, in the hospital.

For CAPE and for myself and for the international medical community now, of all the things that could impact health, the main focus has become climate change and health. The World Health Organization now calls climate change the biggest health threat of the 21st century. In 2015 the Lancet second commission on climate change and health said that tackling climate change was the biggest public health opportunity of the 21st century. The Canadian Medical Association recently recognized this by making climate change a focus of its recent CMA general council in Vancouver. The keynote speaker, Dr. James Orbinski, who accepted the Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of Doctors Without Borders, said that without an intact ecosystem, there's no chance that humans can thrive. In fact, Dr. Orbinski now does research on climate change up here with us in Yellowknife, on wildfires.

This is now CAPE's main focus, and we have concerns about the impact of TPP. Here in Yellowknife, we're already 2°C over our temperatures in the 1950s, and in Inuvik they're already over 3°C. This is a fact of life. There are workmen at my house right now, unfortunately, working on my foundation; I sit on permafrost, and it's all going like....

This has major consequences for respiratory health from wildfires. There have been evacuations, as you know. Lyme disease is spreading across Canada. Our population is experiencing unstable ice conditions. We're already having trouble dealing with what we have going on, including malnutrition across the world. I spent six months working on a pediatric malnutrition project in the Horn of Africa. I can tell you, unfortunately, that the deaths are real. The WHO anticipates having an additional 250,000 deaths per year from climate change between 2030 and 2050. That's actually considered by most in the public health world to be a vast underestimate.

In terms of the TPP, we know that we need to leave at least 80% of fossil fuel reserves in the ground to have a hope of staying below 2°C. NAFTA contains, as does the TPP, investor-state dispute settlement provisions that allow corporations to sue governments for a change in regulation. Under NAFTA, we've already seen TransCanada Corporation seeking US$50 billion in damages after the U.S. rejected Keystone XL. We've seen Lone Pine Resources suing the Government of Canada subsequent to the decision in Quebec to stop fracking in the St. Lawrence area. We can anticipate similar things here.

We require, to give Canadians a soft landing on climate change, a full-scale low-carbon transition and a laser-like focus on things like clean water, food security, and pharmaceutical security. Public health needs to be our main focus, and if trade provisions get in the way, it's a problem.

It must be recognized that all mitigation and adaptation manoeuvres are public health measures, but the TPP chapter that potentially says that if trade isn't a priority means we can be open to the investor state legislation. Unfortunately, the public health exceptions under the WTO dispute system have only been successful one out of every 43 times. If the public health exceptions were effective, why is there a particular exception for tobacco?

Clearly, people other than us are worried that the public health exceptions, as written into the agreement, are not adequate.

Additionally, the increased patent expiration and the—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

If you could wrap up your comments, then we can go ahead.

11:10 a.m.

Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment

Dr. Courtney Howard

The patent term adjustments and the loosening of terms for the repatenting of existing drugs are also a concern to us because the public health burden is going to get bigger.

The fact that lawyers are the people who are going to be adjudicating any dispute is a huge problem. Do they have any knowledge of public health whatsoever? Who chooses them?

Given that the ecological determinants of health are more important to health than anything that happens in the hospital, if your mom were diagnosed with cancer, would you leave the decision about her treatment to a lawyer? If you wouldn't, then it makes no sense to ratify this agreement as it's currently written.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Courtney.

We're going to move on to Craig.

Go ahead, for five minutes, sir.

September 22nd, 2016 / 11:10 a.m.

Craig Yeo As an Individual

Good morning. My name is Craig Yeo, and I am a citizen presenter. I am also a member of the Council of Canadians and a local advocacy group, Alternatives North. I am generally presenting their positions, but I am also appearing as a citizen on my own behalf.

I have filed a brief, which contains some detailed information or presentations of position, largely on the democratic process. I had thought that I would simply read that into the record, but I thought about it overnight. I thought that I am appearing here as a human being, and this may be a little gut level, but I'd like to simply make some remarks on why I'm so concerned about this issue, and that's largely the democratic process.

When I look at governments, as a citizen I think that the role of government is, among other things, to protect the weak from the mighty and to provide the basic services that are necessary for people to prosper, such as clean water and health and democratic rights.

I am always flabbergasted when I look at these agreements and see that the government, in my opinion, has negotiated away its right to preserve and safeguard these things. In many ways, Canada has been very successful in doing these things over the years. We have good pension plans and we have developed some good environmental protections and public health care and other things.

As the neoliberal agenda and the transnationalization of corporations have progressed, as I see it, there's been some concern at the corporate level about this, because these things cost money: if you can't dump mercury into the French or Wabigoon river system anymore, it's going to cost you more money to be in business.

That's what corporations do. It's not their fault; that's their job, and the job of governments is to protect the commons against those things where it's reasonable. As I say, Canada has done these things fairly successfully in the past.

When corporations reached this point in the last 20 or 30 years, they wondered how they were going to get around this and how they were going to control these impacts on their profitability. Obviously you can't run a law through the legislature, in the fresh air of the day, saying that if the government does anything like increasing employee contributions to pension premiums or health care programs, then they're going to have to pay a corporation for the money they lost. Even in a non-vigilant democracy, that doesn't pass the good smell test.

How do you get around this? You get governments elected that share a corporate agenda, and then you give them a mandate to go behind closed doors and negotiate agreements without public review, without openness of negotiations, that are signed even before the details of the agreements are made known, and then run through the public process.

I do applaud the Liberal government for taking these on the road and bringing some light and air into this process, but still what has resulted in these cases is agreements that are not subject to review by the courts. The governments have given away their ability to maintain their supremacy under the Constitution to pass progressive legislation and not be penalized for it down the road.

As Courtney Howard mentioned, Lone Pine Resources is a primary example. The Government of Quebec is concerned about fracking. They didn't ban it, but they want to take a look at it. This is affecting the profitability of the corporation.

I'm very dismayed that governments would do such things, and it's not just the current government. They have parcelled out our democratic rights for decades into the future and handcuffed the ability of governments to take progressive measures for the prosperity, the well-being, and the rights of their citizens.

I know that the Conservative members of the committee are probably much in favour of this agreement, and then there's the Liberal doctrine that these agreements will go ahead. I don't have much confidence that this is going to be changed.

Even in Europe, as we're seeing with CETA, one of the primary kickbacks and the reason they're considering addenda and rewriting some sections of CETA is they just can't get the investor state dispute settlement provisions past the electorate there. People have come out in legions, unlike Canada, to condemn them.

I do condemn them. I ask you to please safeguard the supremacy of my democracy and your ability to legislate and exert authority for the well-being of the citizenry by returning a recommendation that the ISDS provisions are unacceptable and should be reviewed.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you both for your submissions.

We're going to have a dialogue with the MPs here. Each is going to have five minutes, and we're going to start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Van Kesteren, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for appearing here. It's been a while since I've been to beautiful Yellowknife. The last time I was there, my wife asked me if I saw the northern lights, and I told her I'd gone to bed early. I'm still bitter about that and I hope to visit again one of these days and to have that experience again.

I listened with interest, and I think I want to go to you, Mr. Yeo.

These are concerns that, frankly, we've heard repeatedly. You correctly assume that most Conservatives think this is a good idea. I get the impression that most Liberals think it's a good idea too. You must understand that these MPs, I think on both sides of the house, aren't those who have been swallowed up by big corporations and are doing their bidding—far from it.

I'm a businessman myself, a small business man. I come from humble roots, and my roots are still my roots. I certainly am not a shill for corporations. We listen to these things with interest because they are of concern, but I must tell you that we've had the opportunity to cross the country and that for the most part, aside from groups such as your own, when we talk to small and medium-sized businesses, they tell us that these things are important. They're important because free trade offers opportunity. It offers opportunity to Canadians, but it also offers opportunities to other countries.

I gave a speech in the House the day before yesterday. I talked about Korea and how, in the early 1970s, it was one of the poorest nations on earth. Because of trade, because of the free market system, it has risen to become one of the biggest powerhouses in Asia today.

I just want to throw this idea back to you. I want you to explain to the small and medium-sized businesses where they are wrong in their thinking, and why moving progressively forward to expand trade throughout the globe is a bad idea.

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Craig Yeo

I don't think that's exactly a fair characterization. I don't think that the opposition, principally to the ISDS provisions, is in contradiction to the interests of small businesses or large businesses. I think that there are babies and there's bathwater. You don't assume that the agreement is of whole cloth and that all of its provisions are good simply because they promote trade. I have not thoroughly signed on to the notion that these are actually trade agreements; they are investor-state agreements and protection for investors. I don't see why we should have provisions that prevent government from taking progressive measures.

Again, I go back to Lone Pine as a classic example. That may be promoting trade, but at what cost to Canadians? These things should not go ahead holus-bolus without government control of what the nature of that trade and investment will be.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Do you agree, though, that trade and the free market system have lifted millions of people from poverty, and that the free flow of goods between borders and across borders has enabled that to grow, not just for North Americans but for other countries? I named one, Asia, but I could go on and on. Don't you think that those principles are good principles that we should pursue, and then we need to put rules in place so that we can do that in an orderly fashion that protects people?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Craig Yeo

Yes, but again you're characterizing it as grail growth and an ideal that is unfettered. What we have seen with the growth of trade and the increase in global economic activity is the development of a catastrophic situation of climate change and a threat to the very ecological future of the planet. That has been a consequence of the increase in trade that is unfettered and uncontrolled when governments lack effective measures to control it.

I can't support that.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

We're going to move on to the Liberals now.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have five minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Yeo and Dr. Howard.

Dr. Howard, thank you for the work that you're doing, not only in your profession but also in your advocacy for the environment. I totally understand. It's very difficult when things hit home. Last October, my dad died of COPD. He had never smoked all his life. Climate change is a key concern and focus for our government.

I would like to ask both of you this question. When we lessen the trade barriers, wouldn't it affect the lifestyle on the northern part of Canada, making it more affordable?

11:20 a.m.

Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment

Dr. Courtney Howard

I think that there are so many variables that it would be very difficult for us to answer that question adequately. When Minister McKenna came up here, she said that in the south, climate change is an inconvenience; up here, it's impacting our whole life. She said that after meeting with our aboriginal leaders in the afternoon. Nebulous trade.... Our roads are actually melting. The ice roads are melting. Our all-weather roads are going ding-a-ding-a-ding. In many of our small communities, the airport tarmac itself is almost unusable and requires much more money in terms of repair, so it's impossible for me to overstate the extent to which action on climate change is a priority to northerners, because the cost of adaptation is huge. I have already spent $50,000 on my foundation. That's me. This is a one-person house. Can you imagine what it is on a territorial scale?

Therefore, any small decrease in the cost of goods as a result of increased trade is nothing compared to the impact that climate change will have on us if we do not make it an absolute priority.

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Craig Yeo

I go back to the same comments I basically made before. Affordability and standards of living are an issue. We can improve affordability greatly by eliminating all environmental controls and allowing me to dump my toxic waste in the corner, but we don't do that. We regulate.

The authority and the ability of government to regulate and not be penalized for controls that diminish profitability are essential. I see these agreements as trading away government's ability to do that. We can pass laws, but then, if governments are paying multi-million-dollar settlements for their actions, these actions of government are effectively neutralized. That's what these agreements do.

The answer is not affordability at any price. That's what we have now, and look where we are.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Dr. Howard, you mentioned Minister McKenna, and you met her in Paris as well. What was her reception towards your presentation there?

11:25 a.m.

Climate-Health Lead Board Member, Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment

Dr. Courtney Howard

You know, I really found her to be very receptive and I feel that she's really listening and probably understands the health impact of climate change better than most of the doctors in Canada right now. I feel she understands that a lot of the things that will improve climate change in terms of phasing out coal plants and that kind of thing. They have real-time public health benefits in terms of decreasing COPD exacerbation and asthma exacerbations that affect real Canadians.

I feel as though there's a strong willingness within the Liberal government to work on that. I have read quite a few peer-reviewed studies and I spoke with Canada's public health expert on the TPP yesterday on the phone, and he reviewed my submission. I'm not sure that your government has reviewed the TPP cross-referencing with what needs to happen to have a healthy response to climate change, but there are major barriers there that are going to stop what you're actually trying to do.

I wouldn't blame you for not having reviewed that, because I don't think any physician in Canada had until I did so yesterday. I think there's a real integration issue in that this may be at cross-purposes with what is happening in the climate and health realms.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Mr. Yeo, do you see any alternative to the—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Sorry; you only have a few seconds left.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

I'll pass, then. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Okay. I didn't want you to start on a roll and have to cut you off.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

You already cut me off, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!