Evidence of meeting #49 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marvin Hildebrand  Chief Negotiator, Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement, and Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Pierre Bouchard  Director, Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs, Department of Employment and Social Development

11:55 a.m.

University—Rosedale Ontario

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland LiberalMinister of International Trade

Thank you very much, Chairman.

Thank you very much, members of the committee. I think we've all been busy. I think the trade committee has been one of the busiest, most active, and most energetic committees, and I thank you very much for that work. It's really important.

I want to introduce my officials. You've just been hearing from Marvin, who is working on the trade agreement that I think is close to the hearts of all Canadians. Everyone knows the famous Steve Verheul, of CETA fame. I don't know if people have had the chance to meet the terrific new deputy minister of trade, Tim Sargent. We are very lucky to have him. For people who don't know Tim, he comes to International Trade from the Department of Finance and brings to the trade files a very strong economics and financial background. I think that's extremely valuable to have in our department.

Thank you very much, Tim.

I'm going to make a few opening remarks, and then I look forward taking your questions.

I am very pleased to speak to you today in support of CETA, the Act to implement the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Canada and the European Union, and the Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine. These are two historic trade agreements for everyone, and I know many honourable members have worked hard on both agreements.

Our government believes strongly in an open global economy, and we will continue to champion the open society and open global trade. However, we cannot ignore the reality that, today, we are living in the most protectionist environment I have experienced in my lifetime, probably the most protectionist environment since the Second World War.

The Canada-EU Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, and the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement, CUFTA, are historic trade agreements for everyone. I know everyone in this room has worked very hard on both.

Our government, and I personally, believe very strongly in an open global economy, and we will continue to champion the open society and open global trade, but none of us here, and no Canadian, can ignore the fact that today we are living in the most protectionist environment I have experienced in my lifetime, probably the most protectionist environment since the Second World War, if not earlier.

There's a reason for that. A lot of people feel that 21st century global capitalism just isn't working for them. This very big anxiety is manifesting itself, among other things, in a powerful backlash against globalization. For those of us who support the open society, it is incredibly important not to be in denial about the power of these sentiments that are sweeping so much of the Western industrialized world.

Mark opened up our conversation by saying that Canada is a trading nation, and I know we all understand that profoundly. Those of us who really understand that in our core can be tempted to believe that the issue is only one of rhetoric and that if only we were better at talking about how valuable trade is and how costly protectionism is, everything would resolve itself. I think that is not going to be enough. We need to look more deeply than that and understand that this powerful wave of populist anti-globalization sentiment that we're seeing around the world is based in the real, very concrete experience of so many people, particularly in Western industrialized countries, including our own.

When we look at the sources of anxiety that people have, that sense of a hollowed-out middle class, I think we also have to appreciate that the answer has to be about more than trade deals, because the anxiety is about more than trade deals, even if that is where the anger is sometimes directed.

What people are worried about, and I think rightly, is the impact of 21st century global capitalism. The concerns people have, their economic concerns, their concerns for themselves, for their retirement, and for the jobs their children will have or not have are very real, and we need to address them. That is why I feel a central part of our ability to be effective on the trade file, of my ability to be an effective trade minister, comes from other parts of our government's agenda. It is why I am so proud to be part of a government whose first action was to cut taxes for the middle class.

I am proud that we raised taxes on the 1%. That element of fairness is so important to Canadians. We are very proud to have created the Canada child benefit for the families most in need and to have boosted CPP for our seniors.

We are making essential investments every day that strengthen and support our middle class, and it is because of those investments, that broader economic framework, that we can proudly say that in Canada, unlike in very many countries today, we do have broad public support for the open society. We are open to trade and open to immigration.

CETA is one of the most progressive trade agreements ever negotiated. It will help redefine what trade can and should be. It will lead to increased prosperity on both sides of the Atlantic, and create well-paying middle-class jobs, which is our priority objective.

With CETA, Canada is raising the bar and establishing more inclusive trade and higher standards for how global economies must function in the 21st century. This agreement that we are examining today cements the paramount right of democratically elected governments to regulate in the interest of our citizens, to regulate the environment, labour standards, and in defence of the public sector.

When it comes to CETA, this is the most progressive trade agreement that has ever been negotiated. Well done, Steve. CETA will help—is already helping—to redefine what trade agreements can and should be. CETA will lead to increased prosperity on both sides of the Atlantic and create well-paying middle-class jobs.

Canada is raising the bar with CETA. With this agreement we're establishing more inclusive trade and higher standards for how globalization should work in the 21st century. The agreement that we are talking about today crucially cements the paramount right of democratically elected governments to regulate in the interest of our citizens to protect the environment, to protect labour standards, and to defend the public sector. Those are key elements, something I am very proud of. We're proud to have made these changes to CETA since coming into office, and we will continue to champion progressive trade policies.

As our Prime Minister said about CETA:

That leadership that we were able to show between Canada and Europe is not just something that will reassure our own citizens but should be an example to the world of how we can move forward on trade deals that do genuinely benefit everyone.

And the benefits really are clear.

I want to mention a couple of examples of companies that will benefit from CETA, because while it can be fun for us to talk about policy, I think it's really important to bring it back to actual humans we are helping with our work.

Take Vancouver's Corinex, which will now be able to bid and compete for contracts and provide its consulting and communications services to EU clients on a fully competitive basis, or Northland Power from Toronto, the city I represent, with its clean and green power projects that will now be able to expand even further into Europe, where it has a strong footprint, or one of my personal favourites, Manitobah Mukluks, the Métis-founded business based in Winnipeg, whose mukluks are currently subject to a 17% tariff in Europe. That tariff will go down to zero after CETA comes into force. It's clear, Mr. Chair, that CETA will translate into increased profits and market opportunities for Canadian businesses of all sizes, in all sectors, and in every part of the country.

Now let me speak for a few moments about CUFTA, which I know you were speaking about earlier.

This is an agreement that has great personal significance to me as a Ukrainian Canadian. I was thinking about it this week, because Tuesday was the day when we gathered to commemorate the very bitter anniversary of the Holodomor, the artificial famine created by Stalin in Ukraine. That was a moving reminder for me of the very deep connections between Canada and Ukraine. Although I expect to face fierce questioning from you all—not from Gerry, though—it was a reminder for me that in our country we have support across party lines for Ukraine. Linda Duncan was there representing the NDP and Peter Kent was there representing the Conservatives.

It was a great personal honour for me on July 11 this summer to sign the free trade agreement with Ukraine in Kiev. My Ukrainian counterpart Stepan Kubiv signed it on behalf of Ukraine.

Canada and Ukraine understand the importance of trade and of developing our economic relationship for the prosperity of people in both countries, but the agreement is also a further affirmation of the strategic partnership between Canada and Ukraine. It's a very concrete way that we can support a country that is fighting very bravely for its independence and for its democracy and that has deep historic ties with our own country.

I should also say that signing the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement this year is a nice historical moment, since it's the 125th anniversary of the arrival of the first Ukrainian immigrants in Canada.

Actually, they arrived in my home province, in Alberta, but there are a lot in your province too, Randy.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Cape Breton.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Pardon me?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

There are quite a few in Cape Breton too.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

I know. It's the biggest Ukrainian population east of Montreal.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Exactly.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

What is even more important, if Canada is to ratify both of these agreements, is that we will also send an essential signal to the international community, that in an era of nativism and protectionism, Canada stands for the open society and for open trade.

Mr. Chair, if Canada is to ratify both of these agreements, we will be sending an essential and very distinctive message to the world this year that in an era of rising nativism, of rising protectionism, Canada is a country that stands for the open society and for open trade, and that we are a trading nation and we understand that good progressive trade agreements build prosperity for our middle class and the people working hard to join it.

I want to thank everyone for listening to me just now, and for working so hard to make sure that we continue to be an open society.

Merci.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Minister.

A few days ago we had a group from the European Economic and Social Committee. It was a very diverse group. They represented business, unions, and democratic society in all the different parts of Europe they're from. They realize that to pull this agreement together when there are 28 countries and in Canada 10 provinces and three territories that all have to agree, it's nothing short of a miracle that we're this far, when you look at it. With this era of protectionism in the world, it's quite the feat. We're not there yet. As you know, our committee has been dealing with it, and we're patiently waiting for it to come to our committee next week and we'll go from there.

Without further ado, we're going to start the questioning. I know you can't wait for that to happen. We're going to start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Ritz, you have the floor.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister and officials, for being here. Tim, it's great to see you again.

You missed his credentials in agriculture, Minister. He's well versed in a lot of those issues as well. We had the opportunity to travel together. I've actually got some pictures, and now that he's an important person, I'm happy to post them on my Facebook page to share them with the world.

Tim's an avid golfer. He learned rudimentary golf lessons at the WTO in Bali as we waited for things to happen there, watching the paint dry. Welcome, Tim. We appreciate what you're going to bring to the table.

I want to begin with the elephant in the room, Minister. On the final days of the CETA agreement, you took it upon yourself to open Pandora's box in a move to make the agreement, you said, more progressive, and in the end we lost the ability to adjudicate on ISDS. Hindsight is always 20/20. Looking backwards now, is that something you wish you hadn't done?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Absolutely not. Probably the elements of our work on CETA.... I want to back up and say on CETA that one of the things I think is so exemplary about this deal is it shows that Canada can be strongest when we can have a change of party and government but continue to work in the national interest. The Prime Minister and I are very happy to acknowledge in particular the work of the former prime minister, Stephen Harper, in setting CETA in motion. As you know, in opposition, we were very proud to support it.

Having said that, I'm perhaps proudest of all, on a personal note, of the changes we made to make this agreement more progressive. When we formed government, one of the first things we learned was that CETA, this very important agreement we championed in opposition, was actually stalled—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

I would disagree with that statement—

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

No; let me finish, please, and then I'm happy to take more questions.

CETA was concluded at a technical level in September 2014. From that time to November 2015, when we formed government and took office, there was no progress. The finalization of the legal scrub was stalled, and that was because the Europeans had come to the conclusion that the old-school ISDS provisions in the old-school CETA were not something Europe could support. They weren't something European civil society could support, and they weren't something that progressive Europeans could support.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Okay.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

We looked at it, and I agreed. I thought they were exactly right. ISDS has been around for a long time. I think that now is the time to build a more progressive system, something in which the right of states to regulate is fully enshrined—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Sure—

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Hang on.

In addition to making this a better agreement in substance, the changes that we made to the ISDS provisions were essential to getting CETA done on a practical level. I made those changes because they were the right thing to do, but had we not made them, this agreement would still be in legal purgatory in the offices of the European Commission.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Yes, but it was only regional governments that were concerned about it, not the state levels.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Actually, that—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Having said that, it's my five minutes and I want to move on—

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Gerry, that is simply untrue.

It was the European Commission that put forward its investment court proposal. This was something that was a concern of the governments of Germany, France—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Sure, but we ended up with nothing.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

—the Netherlands, and Italy. This agreement would not have happened had we not made the changes to ISDS.

Let me also say—and I think it's good for the committee to know this—the progressive direction that we have moved in with CETA is something that we are rolling out across all of our trade agreements. It's something we believe in and that we're proud to champion.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

The reality is that we have no coverage at this point.

I want to move on to CUFTA.

We had a good discussion with Mr. Hildebrand and some of his officials, but something that's needed on the ground once we make these agreements is for small businesses in Canada to have the ability take advantage of them.

Having trade people in the consulates is very important. Right now EDC, which can be a very important contributing factor to getting that done, is based out of London. Is there going to be a move to have their boots on the ground to start to look at cattle and livestock genetics? There is huge market potential in the Ukraine, but are we actually going to have people dedicated to Ukraine, and not coming over from London?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

It will have to be a short answer, Minister.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Okay. As you may know, Gerry, our EDC representative based in London is actually Ukrainian, so—