Evidence of meeting #78 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spirits.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jan Westcott  President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada
Ainsley Butler  Representative, Ottawa Chapter, Organization of Women in International Trade
Marcela Mandeville  Director, Women's Enterprise Organizations of Canada
Alma Farias  Representative, Toronto Chapter, Organization of Women in International Trade
C.J. Helie  Executive Vice-President, Spirits Canada
Gus Van Harten  Professor of Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, As an Individual
Julie Delahanty  Executive Director, Oxfam Canada
Aylin Lusi  Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada, United Parcel Service of America Inc.
Francesca Rhodes  Women's Rights Policy and Advocacy Specialist, Oxfam Canada
Raymond Bachand  Chief Negotiator for NAFTA for the Government of Quebec and Strategic Advisor for Norton Rose Fulbright
Pierre Marc Johnson  Senior Counsel, Lavery, de Billy, As an Individual

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada, United Parcel Service of America Inc.

Aylin Lusi

Thank you for the question. On the gender chapter and bringing greater opportunities to female business owners, I would say that's certainly something that UPS wholeheartedly supports.

I personally am an active member of the OWIT group, which you met earlier this afternoon. Really, educating and broadening the horizons of female business owners is something that is very close to our hearts within UPS. We're active on that here in Canada, but also in the United States and Mexico, and globally as well.

My answer is yes. We do engage through various fora. OWIT is one of them, but we also engage through other groups within the small business community as well, where we engage with female business owners specifically. That is our area of expertise.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

That's fantastic to hear. I know that Oxfam is in 90 countries, and I'm sure UPS is in many more than that.

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada, United Parcel Service of America Inc.

Aylin Lusi

It's 220.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

As you say, you're in 220, and I'm trying to get this in. Our last presenters talked about their best practices. What country is doing it best? Also, where do we go? Are we pioneering here with what we're doing? Or do we go somewhere in terms of finding these best practices? Where would we go?

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Oxfam Canada

Julie Delahanty

To answer that last question, too, I think, in terms of asking whether Oxfam is putting pressure on companies, I would say that we are working a lot with women's rights organizations and private sector women-owned business at fora such as the W7 or the W20, or even the WTO, so there is some pressure, but there are a lot of women-owned business that are very interested in the gender chapter, for obvious reasons.

The second part of your question was...? I've forgotten.

4:55 p.m.

Women's Rights Policy and Advocacy Specialist, Oxfam Canada

Francesca Rhodes

It was about best practices.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Yes. I've heard that Sweden may have some of the best practices.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Oxfam Canada

4:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Oxfam Canada

Julie Delahanty

Do you have an answer, Francesca?

4:55 p.m.

Women's Rights Policy and Advocacy Specialist, Oxfam Canada

Francesca Rhodes

I think some of the approaches that Canada is proposing are quite new. Chile, obviously, is the country that originally proposed the use of the gender chapter, and I note that they're leading on a lot of this work as well at the moment. Sweden also has in its feminist foreign policy a whole section on trade and on supporting women to benefit from trade as well, but they obviously operate through the European Union, so it's slightly different in terms of what they can do on their own.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Oxfam Canada

Julie Delahanty

Can I add that Canada has always been a leader in the area of gender and trade? We took a bit of a break for some time, but we have done a considerable amount of work on that issue and I think it's worth reviving some of that. There was a drop in some of the activities, but there was a lot of work done in the early 2000s that hasn't changed. Nothing has really changed much.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thanks very much. That wraps up our round with this group of witnesses. We've had very good dialogue, questions, and presentations. Again, thank you. If you're looking for more input into our study, we would appreciate it. Keep an eye out for our study at the end of the year.

That wraps up this panel. We're doing really well, MPs. We have our next group of witnesses on deck, so we're going to break for only a minute and get right back at it.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Okay. It looks like all the MPs are back in their seats and we have our new witnesses here.

Before I go ahead, we have some numbers here that I would like to circulate, but I need a bit of a.... They didn't have a chance to translate this, but if there are no objections.... We can translate them, because they're really good numbers, but if there are no objections, we'll circulate them.

We welcome our guests. I don't think our panellists are new to our international trade committee. As they know, we've done the European agreement, and we've done a lot of work on the TPP. Now we're right up to our eyeballs in.... We don't call it NAFTA. We call it “future trade between Canada, the United States, and Mexico”.

We're dealing with a lot of stakeholders. Also, our committee already did some extensive travel in the United States. We've done three major trips to the United States. We were hoping to go to Mexico last week, but our friends down in Mexico had a terrible earthquake, so we're going to link up with them later.

Without further ado, we have two gentlemen here with us today who are definitely not new to the trade file. From the Government of Quebec, we have Mr. Raymond Bachand, and from Lavery, De Billy, we have Pierre Marc Johnson, senior counsel.

Maybe we can hear from the Government of Quebec first.

5 p.m.

Raymond Bachand Chief Negotiator for NAFTA for the Government of Quebec and Strategic Advisor for Norton Rose Fulbright

Good afternoon.

I would like to specify that I am no longer with the Government of Quebec. I was Minister of Industry and Minister of Finance for Quebec for eight years. I work in the same building as before, but in a legal firm, at Norton Rose Fulbright, where I am a strategic advisor. I am the chief Quebec negotiator for NAFTA. So it is true that in this case, I represent the Government of Quebec.

I believe I have five minutes to speak to you very briefly about five points in NAFTA that are related to Quebec's objectives.

The table is in English and I am the one who prepared it.

It's U.S. numbers using U.S. dollars, and the source is the USTR.

The American administration is obsessed with trade deficits. This table shows that we have exchanges that total $600 billion overall with the United States. The United States has a surplus in services and a deficit where goods are concerned. However, if we remove energy, and the Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross says that energy

is a “blameless deficit”,

and so the United States have a surplus. They also have a slight surplus in agriculture, although it could be said that agricultural trade is balanced.

In parallel with the $600 billion in American trade, there are $622 billion in investment stocks, that is to say $353 billion in American investments in Canada and $269 billion of Canadian investments in the United States.

So those are two very integrated economies. Currently, this is under attack. The first objective is, as they say in Washington,

“do no harm”.

Can we continue in this manner? To give you a better perspective, I should mention that Asian competition did not exist in its current form 25 years ago, but today it is very strong. Protectionism is not the way to fight Asian competition; it must be fought through an even greater integration of the Canadian and American economies, and strengthening value chains, because then they will be more productive. If our economies are more productive, they will be more competitive, and that will be a win-win situation for both parties.

As for our main offensive interests—because we must also have offensive interests—first there is access to public procurement, if we want to strengthen our economies. Certain big American public business opportunities are currently closed to Canadian businesses. I am thinking of everything that is included in the Buy American provisions, which are being added to. That should be one of our first important objectives, as Quebeckers and Canadians.

And then, there is the temporary admission of tradesmen and professionals. All of our enterprises—I have done a lot of consultation in Quebec and in Canada, but also in the United States—want to increase the flexibility of this temporary admission. We have to avoid the word “immigration”.

Immigration is a four-letter word.

It is not immigration currently in the United States, but trade. When you sell equipment or computer services worth $100 million, technicians and professionals need to follow, to do the work involved.

Then I would talk about obstacles at the borders. For instance, there is a dual agricultural inspection, and also a dual biotechnology inspection by the FDA for pharmaceutical products. Could we not simplify our lives and have a single inspection, and recognize the inspection carried out by the other government? There is also regulatory co-operation and certification. Why do we need two certifications? Mr. Johnson might speak about what he managed to accomplish with Europe. Human beings are the same in Canada and the United States. We are not talking about dogs, cats or elephants. We are all human beings, and the standards in Canada and the United States are very high. These elements would make our enterprises more effective and productive, and strengthen our economies.

From the defensive point of view—and the watchword is “do no harm”—I would point to four things, but there are others. First, there is the protection of supply management, which is fundamental.

There is chapter 19 of NAFTA, but I will save that for the end.

There is also the cultural exception, that is to say Quebec and Canada's capacity to adopt their cultural policies and to have it declared that this does not violate trade agreements. That is fundamental in today's world.

The de minimis rule is a major one. Perhaps one of your witnesses spoke about that. It is connected to the $20 amount, that is to say the maximum value for which one may import goods electronically without having to pay duty or tax. We also have to make a distinction here between tariffs and sales tax. Europe has established two levels, a very high one for tariffs and a very low one for sales tax. The latter applies at a very low level.

For retail businesses in Canada, it's a matter of having fair rules of the game. In fact, when a client purchases a product from a Canadian electronics retailer, he pays 15% sales tax in Quebec. However, if he ordered merchandise of equal value, let's say $500, from an American electronics business, he would not have to pay that tax.

This makes me think of the former tax on manufactured goods. It was a bit crazy, because we taxed the products of Canadian manufacturers whereas imported products were not taxed. That tax was replaced by the GST.

I will conclude by speaking about chapter 19 of NAFTA, regarding the arbitration mechanism. In my opinion, Quebec's economy is under attack today. We have a vast free trade market. We have a zero tariff with NAFTA, a quota for textiles and a quota for supply management, but the softwood lumber sector has very high countervailing duties, of course. The C Series is the aircraft industry flagship, and represents tens of thousands of jobs. There is also supercalendered paper. There is an investigation about newsprint. There is also an investigation on steel and aluminum. Of course, we naive Canadians believe that the aluminum industry is secure and that we will be exempted. However, there is an inquiry into aluminum, and we don't know the results of that yet. If we add the softwood lumber file, that of the C Series, that of supercalendered paper, newsprint, steel, aluminum and there are more, it is like an open bar. Moreover, the American Commerce Department finds in favour of foreign businesses once every 10 years.

This is a hostile environment right now.

We have to change this because Canadians, Quebeckers and Americans are proponents of free trade.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir.

We are going to move on to Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Johnson, you have quite the resumé here. Not only are you a former premier, but you have worked on softwood lumber, on CETA, and on climate change for the United Nations. You are also involved with helping us on the NAFTA file.

Welcome, sir. We are looking forward to your presentation.

5:10 p.m.

Pierre Marc Johnson Senior Counsel, Lavery, de Billy, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll do my three and a half or five minutes in French, and I will, of course, gladly answer questions either in French or in English.

I have little to add to what Mr. Bachand just said. I think he gave a good overview of our relationship with the United States and Mexico, and especially with the United States. He explained our defensive and offensive interests very well. I find it difficult to add anything because he provided a complete overview, in my opinion.

I can however talk to the current dynamic, that is to say about the different nature of negotiations between Canada and Europe, and the renegotiation of NAFTA. I would also like to speak about the provincial participation in that process.

Here is how the negotiations with Europe are very different.

Firstly, when we began to negotiate with Europe eight years ago, there was no agreement, whereas right now we are negotiating with the United States and Mexico on the basis of an almost 25-year-old agreement. The reality is not the same. So long as we have not renewed NAFTA, or so long as it is not repudiated by one of its parties, daily business goes on. It does not mean that some retailers are not anxious, given what they hear, or read on Twitter or elsewhere.

Secondly, in the case of the agreement with Europe, there was absolute determination on the part of both parties to come to an agreement. Both Canada and Europe wanted an agreement, even if things were complex, as shown by the 500 pages of text and the 1,000 pages of exceptions. This was not simple, and that is why the process went on for a certain length of time. On the European side there was a will and a determination to conclude an agreement with Canadians so as to further transatlantic trade. That is not the case with NAFTA.

NAFTA is being reopened in the context of the extremely negative political discourse of the new occupant of the White House regarding that agreement, which he described as the worst possible agreement imaginable.

Despite that, the appointment of Mr. Ross, who is very knowledgeable about U.S. trade policy, as the senior supervisor, and that of Mr. Lighthizer, a well-known, experienced lawyer and trade specialist, could indicate that we will be back in the land of reason.

I want to insist on the fact that any free trade agreement is based on reason, rationality, an understanding of macroeconomics and trade, as well as on a desire for reciprocal enrichment through trade.

How do we get there? There are two relatively easy ways, first through a better understanding of our respective economic systems, since they are slightly different; secondly, we need to agree that we will encourage greater free circulation of goods, persons and capital, with a few exceptions; thirdly, we commit to being disciplined, that is to say to changing the laws, administrative procedures and regulations to facilitate that free circulation of goods, persons and capital. After that, we negotiate the 1,000 pages of exceptions, and that keeps the lawyers busy.

With—

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Are you almost wrapping up? I know you're on a roll, but your time is almost up.

5:15 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Lavery, de Billy, As an Individual

Pierre Marc Johnson

Okay. I'll answer questions about provincial participation in both, and maybe in other arenas whenever I get a question on it.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

That's a good segue.

We'll go right to the Conservatives for five minutes.

Mr. Carrie, you have the floor.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentation. I'm going to ask a question on the chart you provided, Mr. Bachand.

We had the U.S. Chamber of Commerce here. Their representative made a comment and questioned whether a trade surplus or deficit is really the bar by which to judge a good or a bad deal. You mentioned the rhetoric out of the White House. What do you think of that comment?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Negotiator for NAFTA for the Government of Quebec and Strategic Advisor for Norton Rose Fulbright

Raymond Bachand

It's certainly a good question. Economists can argue about that. It's one of the bars, but it's not the only bar. If that's your only bar, you're really short-sighted in a sense, because the economic flows.... For example, trade surpluses and deficits are one thing, but there's $600 billion in investments. If it's your company in Canada, or your Canadian company in the U.S., where do the profits flow? Where does the interest flow? Because with strength, with natural resources or brain resources, you can build things. That's how you build wealth, basically, not only by looking at the numbers.

The numbers can fluctuate. That's why for energy it's a good thing to take it out, in a sense, because the price and the numbers have fluctuated quite a bit. You have to look at it, but sometimes in a country.... Secretary Ross said that for energy. He said that “we are not self-sufficient in energy”.

Those are words I keep in memory carefully.

He said it's normal that they import energy from their Canadian friends, so they shouldn't count that. That's a “blameless deficit”. The President didn't take it up in a tweet.

5:20 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

That's good.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

So far.