Evidence of meeting #9 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Nicholas Swales  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Good morning everyone on this beautiful day in Ottawa. We're almost like British Columbia, but your flowers are up already. Ours are just coming.

We have an exciting morning. We have our Auditor General. It's good to see you, Mr. Ferguson. Thank you for coming with a suggestion for us. Our committee is welcoming you here. You have someone with you, Nicholas Swales. We have an hour this morning, and my understanding is it's about the products coming across the border.

Mr. Ferguson, this is not your first time sitting in front of committee. You know the routine, so the floor is yours for however long you want it, then we'll have some questions. Thank you for coming. Go ahead sir.

8:45 a.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on controlling exports at the border that was recently presented to Parliament. Joining me at the table is Nicholas Swales, principal, who was responsible for the audit.

Exports are vital to Canada's economy, but some are controlled to achieve a range of policy objectives, such as protecting Canadians' safety and security. Although several federal entities play a role in controlling exports, the Canada Border Services Agency is the last line of defence to prevent goods that contravene Canada's export laws from leaving the country.

Our audit focused on whether the agency had the necessary information, practices, and controls at the border to enable it to implement its enforcement priorities, prevent the export of goods that contravened Canada's export laws, and facilitate legitimate trade.

We found weaknesses in the information, practices, and authorities the agency applied to assess export risks, assign its resources, and act on its priorities. As a result, the agency missed opportunities to stop some goods that did not comply with Canada's export control laws from leaving the country.

For example, the Canada Border Services Agency relied on export declarations to identify and examine high-risk shipments, but was unable to review all the declarations it received. We noted that it was not able to review export declarations received on paper as rigorously as those received electronically. The agency's ability to continue the level of review of electronic declarations was also at risk because of uncertainty about the future of the system that collects these declarations.

Once the declarations are reviewed, the agency recommends that its staff at ports of exit examine selected high-risk shipments. These processes were effective on some measures. For example, the agency found approximately 700 stolen cars in 2013 and 2014. Furthermore, the agency prevented the export of several shipments that were cause for national security concern.

However, about one in five high-risk shipments identified by the agency's centralized targeting unit was not examined at the port of exit. We also noted some systematic gaps in coverage. For example, as a result of staffing challenges, the agency did not conduct any examinations of parcels leaving Canada at one large processing centre.

We found that the agency had limited information, capacity, and authority to review and examine shipments that were not reported on export declarations. For example, the agency had limited ability to conduct random examinations of these shipments, which hindered its ability to assess the level of non-compliance.

We also looked at the impact that the agency's export control activities had on legitimate trade. The Canada Border Services Agency's mandate includes facilitating the free flow of goods. However, to ensure that exported goods comply with Canada's laws, the agency must stop and examine some shipments at the border, resulting in possible delays and increased costs.

We found that the number of legitimate export shipments that were delayed by the agency's control activities was very small compared with total exports. However, the agency did not process 11% of temporarily detained shipments in a timely manner. Our survey of exporters whose shipments were delayed but later released found that some experienced a major impact including lost sales and contracts.

We also looked at the timelines of export permit processing by Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada, now Global Affairs Canada, and we found that the department was meeting its service standards.

We made six recommendations to the Canada Border Services Agency. The agency prepared an action plan to address each of our recommendations and presented it to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks and we would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Well, thank you very much for that presentation and some eye-opening comments.

We're going to start off with Mr. Ritz for five minutes.

April 14th, 2016 / 8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Ferguson, and Mr. Swales, welcome, and it's good to see you again.

I'm more than puzzled on some of the things that you found. On point 7 here you talk about five high-risk shipments. What's your definition of a high-risk shipment?

8:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Actually, first, it's what CBSA considered to be a high-risk shipment. Through their process of identifying the types of things that they are looking for they established three priorities, which we lay out in the report, about looking for technologies that could be used to develop dangerous weapons, and that this needs to be controlled; looking for the proceeds of crime, essentially, stolen parts—

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Both shipments coming in and going out?

8:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

No, this audit was about export control.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Export only, okay.

8:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Then their third priority was realizing that export permits are required in some cases. It was important that organizations or shipments that need export permits have those export permits, but that was a little harder for them to manage.

Essentially, they had established three areas of priority. Through looking at export declarations when declarations were needed, for example, they had a process of identifying what was a high-risk shipment. It wasn't us saying something was a high-risk shipment, it was the department saying it was a high-risk shipment.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Also, in that same bullet point you make a challenge that it's a result of staffing challenges. Are we talking about not enough personnel on the front line? When you make a claim like that, do you actually then look at the efficiency and effectiveness of where they place their personnel? Are they overweighted on administration and not enough on front line?

Do you look at that as part of your overview as well that they could have more effective and efficient use of their personnel?

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I think what we were reporting on there, essentially, was a result of the fact that the Canada Border Services Agency considers the control of imports to be their number one priority. They are much more concerned about what's coming into the country. That's where they put their priority, and that's how they allocate their resources, first to those types of things.

We recognize that departments will often operate under resource constraints. The world is always operating under resource constraints, so we recognize that's the case. What we were looking for essentially was once they decided the level of resources to put towards export control, whether they doing it in a systemic way of covering the issues. We found that there were predictable gaps in the way that the system was set up.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

The process is flawed.

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Again, some of the activities were working. When they were able to target something and look at it, they were finding things. The problem was that the gaps in the system were predictable, so if somebody was trying to get around the export controls that Canada Border Services Agency had in place, it was easy to identify how to do that.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

We call that smuggling.

On another point, you say the agency has a concern that when they review something electronically, there's uncertainty about the future of the system. How is that possible? Don't they have a robust enough system to handle it? How could there be uncertainty in a system that's up and running?

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I'll let Mr. Swales give more of the details on this. This was essentially because the system they were using was put in place originally by Statistics Canada to collect more statistical information rather than a system originally designed for export declarations.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

It's not as user friendly as it should be then.

8:55 a.m.

Nicholas Swales Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chair, it's not just that it wasn't user friendly, though that's certainly an issue. The other issue was it was an old system that Statistics Canada basically wanted to retire and had been wanting to retire for a number of years. The question was if it was to be retired, what would replace it. That was what was uncertain.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Okay, but you're not going to lose the data. The data would still be there, but you would have to merge it into the new system then.

8:55 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Nicholas Swales

What we would need is that the new system could still receive the declarations electronically.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

How old is the system they are using?

8:55 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Nicholas Swales

I'm sorry, I don't know that off the top of my head.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

But it's obsolete. Every year the stuff is gone.

8:55 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Nicholas Swales

Yes. It's quite an old system.

As we said, they had started to think about replacing it as early as at least since 2009 so it has been quite a long time that they have even been at that stage.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you.

We're going to go to the Liberals now. Mr. Dhaliwal is up first, for five minutes.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Swales.

Mr. Ferguson, you note that Canada's border agency did not fully have the necessary authorities, information, practices, and controls to implement its enforcement priorities.

Even though you did the audit on the export of the goods, for me it's also alarming when it comes to the imports of the goods. This is particularly alarming to me when my constituents of Surrey—Newton have been riddled with gun violence over the last few months. There have been 30 shooting incidents in Surrey since the start of 2016. The safety of constituents is the foremost responsibility for us elected representatives.

What improvements in regard to authorities, information, practices, and controls would better assist the Canada Border Services Agency in combatting the problem of illegal smuggling of these guns across our borders?