International Trade Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The message is out, gentlemen across the table.

Mr. Topp, my next question is for you. I want to tell you that I too am delighted that chapter 11 has disappeared. Several years ago now, I often demonstrated in the streets to denounce this chapter, which was in fact a charter of rights for big business.

Several months ago, a meeting was held in Montreal with a U.S. Senate committee, the Ways and Means Committee. Members of this committee began talking about the importance of improving the working conditions of Mexican workers. I was puzzled because I thought they were going to talk about American workers. However, the Americans had understood that they could not keep good jobs in the United States if they did not improve the working conditions and wages of Mexican workers.

There's a first in the new agreement. There seems to be an agreement to set up a mechanism for complaints, monitoring and possibly sanctions if rights, including trade union rights or free collective bargaining rights, are violated in Mexico.

What have you found in your experience with this group? How confident are you in its effectiveness?

[Brian Topp]

We'll see.

It's certainly a good start. We can say that we have an ally on this issue, and that ally is the Mexican government. Let's remember that the President of Mexico was the socialist candidate. We find ourselves in an interesting and new period, because Mexico has a government that wants to work for workers' rights. In a certain sense, there was a convergence of very good factors for the workers of Mexico, and therefore for the workers of Canada and the United States.

The Mexican government has changed its priorities. In a way, we're helping that government with this deal. We're telling them that we're supporting them in the cause for which they were elected. It is not going to be easy. Mexico's history is brutal.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes.

[Brian Topp]

As we all know, there are famous and well-known causes in the metalworking world and elsewhere. It's only a beginning, but it's a good beginning and a good alliance. As I said earlier, it's also a huge shift in priorities and form. So, for that reason, I say it's a good start.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Fine.

If time permits, I'd like to hear from everybody.

Traditionally, when there are trade agreements like this, the federal governments consult and receive people. Then all that information goes into a kind of magic box and disappears. You don't hear about it again until the end.

Do you think the federal government should set the objectives for new negotiations for these agreements? What do we want to achieve? Where do we draw a red line to say that we don't want to sacrifice the supply management system, for example?

Afterwards, there would be a process of going back and forth with stakeholders, industry and unions so that everyone is aware and there are no nasty surprises at the end.

[Brian Topp]

If I am not mistaken, this proposal came from the NDP caucus, which said that we needed a new process. I believe I saw a letter of agreement between the government and the caucus that talks about these issues.

As I said, it is obvious that we should have, at least, the same openness and transparency as in the United States and Mexico on this issue. So, if there are any good things to come out of this process in a minority government, in Canada, it's that we're going to agree on what the future process or the new agreement will be.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Does anyone else want to comment on the transparency of the negotiation process for the Canadian and Quebec public?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Could we have a short answer?

[Mike Kilby]

Am I able to chime in?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, sir. Go right ahead.

[Mike Kilby]

My manufacturing business uses the very raw product that my colleagues from Quebec produce. I produce parts from that which are fed up into tier one manufacturers that end up in the OEM automobiles that we all drive. I am the market for that raw product that is produced in Quebec.

I can tell you unequivocally that to protect our industry and to advance the interests of our aluminum industry in Canada, we need to close the back door with Mexico. I know this is a narrow subject for me to advance, but it has been a long, hard-fought and hard-won battle to get anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese metal entering Canada and the United States. Both countries have anti-dumping and countervailing duties in place for a reason. Our industries were almost wiped off the face of North America in 2009-10.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, sir. I have to interrupt. I'm sure one of the other members will be asking you further questions, and you can tie that in.

The members get only five or six minutes each, so it's difficult to get the questions and answers all done.

Mr. Kram.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Because we are joined by Mr. Gilbert and so many representatives from the aluminum sector, I'm going to be sharing my time with Mr. Martel.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to know the differences between the old NAFTA and the CUSMA, because you say that the CUSMA compromises investment. I would like to know why.

[Éric Gilbert]

Surely a company that loses production or sales capacity to an unfair competitor—

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I want to know the differences between NAFTA and the CUSMA in its current form.

[Éric Gilbert]

At the time NAFTA was concluded, almost 25 or 30 years ago, aluminum production in Russia and China was not the same as it is today, as was mentioned earlier. They are the ones who have been trying to corner the aluminum market for the last 15 or 20 years.

We can't compare NAFTA and CUSMA because, in reality, this is a redesign of NAFTA. We find that there is no protection for aluminum. The provision related to the 70% requirement does not prevent Mexico from moving aluminum through the United States.

Basically, we're here as employee union representatives to say that we want to keep our jobs in this area. We want to produce aluminum and we want to grow our business. We need the AP-60 plant to expand and continue to promote green aluminum and traceability. That's what will make our aluminum production strong, regionally, nationally and provincially.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Do you believe that the CUSMA poses a danger to your workers?

[Donat Pearson]

Yes, because we see that the employer is reluctant to send more metal to the market. We also see other companies moving small ingots through Mexico, where they sell for $150 a tonne cheaper than what we produce. It's still pretty hard to compete when there are no anti-dumping measures in place.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Finally, I would like to ask you one last question. Between the position of the president of the Syndicat des travailleurs de l'aluminium d'Alma, Mr. Sylvain Maltais, who is not at all reassured by the CUSMA, and that of the president of the Syndicat national des employés de l'aluminium de Baie-Comeau, Mr. Michel Desbiens, who says he is concerned, but not necessarily worried, where does your union stand?

[Donat Pearson]

I don't want to speak for Mr. Maltais, but when we came here three or four weeks ago, the United Steelworkers were opposed to the ratification of the agreement. As for Mr. Desbiens, you're quoting his opinion, but I'm not able to speak for him either.

We, on the other hand, are not against ratification of the agreement. We know it has to be done, but it should include some protection for aluminum.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

How are we for time, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have a minute and a half.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay, very good.

Mr. Topp, you talked about Canada's dependence on exports to the United States. The United States is the only country that shares a border with us. What can we do in the long term to reduce our dependence on exports to the United States?