Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claire Citeau  Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance
Brian Innes  Vice-President, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance
Bob Lowe  Vice-President, Chair of Foreign Trade Committee, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Fawn Jackson  Manager, Environment and Sustainability, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Hassan Yussuff  President, Canadian Labour Congress
Ken Neumann  National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers
Mark Rowlinson  Executive Assistant to the National Director, United Steelworkers
Jean Simard  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aluminium Association of Canada
Huw Williams  Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
Jackie King  Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Catherine Cobden  President, Canadian Steel Producers Association
Mark Agnew  Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Oumar Dicko  Chief Economist, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
Michael Bose  As an Individual
D'Arcy Hilgartner  As an Individual
Lak Shoan  Director, Policy and Industry Awareness, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Jake Vermeer  Vermeer's Dairy Ltd

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I call the meeting of the Standing Committee on International Trade to order.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are continuing are study of Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.

For witnesses in this segment we have, from the Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance, Brian Innes, vice-president, and Claire Citeau, the executive director; from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, Bob Lowe, vice-president, and Fawn Jackson, manager, environment and sustainability; from the Canadian Labour Congress, Hassan Yussuff, president, and Chris Roberts, national director; and from the United Steelworkers, Ken Neumann, national director, and Mark Rowlinson, executive assistant to the national director.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you for taking the time to appear before the committee today.

We will start with Ms. Citeau.

3:35 p.m.

Claire Citeau Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance

Thank you for inviting us to speak on behalf of the Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance, or CAFTA, the voice of Canadian agri-food exporters, regarding the Canada–United States–Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA.

Our members have a very simple message: CAFTA calls for the swift ratification of CUSMA to ensure continued stability in the North American market and strongly urges parliamentarians in both houses to pass Bill C-4 quickly.

CAFTA represents the 90% of farmers who depend on trade, and producers, manufacturers, and agri-food exporters who want to grow the economy through better and competitive access to international markets. This includes the beef, pork, meat, grain, cereal, pulse, soybean, canola, as well as the malt, sugar and processed food industries. Together, CAFTA members account for more than 90% of Canada's agri-food exports, which, in 2019, reached over $60 billion, and support about a million jobs in urban and rural communities across Canada. A significant portion of these jobs and sales would not exist without competitive access to world markets.

3:35 p.m.

Brian Innes Vice-President, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance

Despite this incredible success, we're facing unprecedented uncertainty. Predictability has been eroded, and governments are putting in place tariffs and non-tariff measures that blatantly contradict trade rules. It's happened here in North America, and it's happening abroad.

Last spring, CAFTA released a prescription for what's required from trade agreements in this new environment. Realizing Canada's export potential in an unpredictable and fiercely competitive world outlines what is required for Canadian agri-food exports to continue to set records.

CAFTA's first recommendation is to preserve and enhance access to key export markets, which is exactly what ratifying and bringing CUSMA into force as quickly as possible would do. We understand the nationalist noises swirling around. We saw them firsthand when we attended the negotiation rounds for CUSMA in all three capitals. It's why we applauded when Canada concluded talks last fall. It's why CAFTA welcomed the end of aluminum and steel tariffs. We appreciate the value of tariff-free markets because, for the agri-food industry, tariff-free access has been incredible for our sector.

Over the last 25 years Canadian agri-food exports to the U.S. and Mexico have nearly quadrupled under NAFTA. They've gone from $9 billion in 1993 to $34 billion in 2019. Today, the U.S. and Mexico are our first- and fourth-largest markets, representing about 55% of all of our agri-food exports.

We at CAFTA support CUSMA because it will build on the success of NAFTA. It will preserve our duty-free access to North American markets, and it's this duty-free access that is the foundation of the success of our sector.

Our members, including the hundreds of thousands of farmers, ranchers, food processors and agri-food exporters across the country, rely on trade for their livelihood. We're very pleased that the Canadian government is taking steps to ensure that CUSMA is brought into force.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance

Claire Citeau

Our members emphasize the following outcomes as key benefits of the new CUSMA.

The agreement contains no new tariffs or trade-restricting measures. All agricultural products that have zero tariffs under NAFTA will remain at zero tariffs under CUSMA. Maintaining predictable, duty-free access to the North American market is a major win for Canada's agriculture and agri-food exporters, which will help strengthen the supply chains that have been developed for the past generations across North America.

The new agreement includes meaningful progress on regulatory alignment and co-operation. In particular, I would note the establishment of the working group for co-operation on agricultural biotechnology and the creation of a new sanitary and phytosanitary committee, which will help ensure that regulations are transparent and based on science, and that trade in North America flows freely, fairly and abundantly.

Another key benefit for our members is the preservation of dispute resolution provisions that are vital to ensuring that fair and transparent processes are in place when disagreements arise. Preserving chapter 19 in its entirety and much of chapter 20 from the previous NAFTA are important wins for our members.

Market access improvements for Canadian agri-food exporters include increased quotas for refined sugar and sugar-containing products as well as some gains for some processed oilseed products like margarine. These are all welcome wins.

All these advances will help consolidate the gains of the original NAFTA and provide certainty in the North American market, which is really essential to the success of Canadian agri-food manufacturers and exporters.

In closing, CUSMA represents a meaningful upgrade to NAFTA for our members by keeping our trade tariff free, establishing processes that help remove remaining technical barriers to trade and maintaining vital provisions to deal with disputes.

We look forward to working with the government to bring CUSMA into force as soon as possible so that our members can realize its benefits as quickly as possible.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Lowe for the Cattlemen's Association.

3:35 p.m.

Bob Lowe Vice-President, Chair of Foreign Trade Committee, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Thank you, and good afternoon. My name's Bob Lowe and I'm a rancher and feedlot operator in southern Alberta. I'm also the current vice-president of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, the national voice of Canada's 60,000 beef operations.

I'll just add a little correction. With me is Fawn Jackson, who has gone through the environment portfolio and is now the senior manager of government and international affairs with the Canadian Cattlemen's Association.

The CCA has long been an advocate for free trade, and today I'm here to encourage all parliamentarians to swiftly ratify CUSMA. Under both NAFTA and CUSMA, the beef industries of Canada, the United States and Mexico have and will enjoy reciprocal duty-free trade between our countries. North America is the largest market for Canadian beef, and the integration of our markets makes us more competitive internationally.

The next generation is involved in my family farming operation, and I can tell you that I'm excited for their future. Last year, following the implementation of the CPTPP, Canadian beef saw an impressive demand bump. Our exports overall grew 19% in value and, specifically, 68% in value in the Japanese market. I bring this up because a similar demand increase happened following the implementation of the original NAFTA.

Under NAFTA, Canadian beef exports to the U.S. grew 340% in total value, from $500 million in 1995 to $2.3 billion in 2019. Similarly, beef exports to Mexico grew over 30-fold in value from $3.7 million in 1995 to $127 million in 2019. All of this is to say that trade agreements are not only fundamental to the viability of farming and ranching operations from coast to coast, but are also the foundation for growth of Canada's agricultural sector.

For my cattle operation, having American buyers in the Canadian market for live cattle means that I can rest assured that I have a competitive market to sell my cattle into. Today, we are seeing an example of this in eastern Canada, where cattle producers are struggling financially, as a technical issue has essentially removed American cattle buyers from their market. This has resulted in significantly depressed prices and is an unfortunate example of just how important having an open and competitive North American cattle market is. Having North American buyers participate actively in the Canadian market is imperative to the financial well-being of Canadian farmers.

3:40 p.m.

Fawn Jackson Manager, Environment and Sustainability, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

It's not just reciprocal duty-free trade that is important, but also the progress on regulatory alignment, co-operation, and avoidance of factors disruptive to trade. We were quite relieved that the negotiators thwarted efforts to bring back mandatory country-of-origin labelling, which cost the Canadian beef industry billions of dollars between 2008 and 2015. Additionally, the new agreement includes a section that highlights the commitment to not disrupt trade through labelling. We were pleased to see the shared priority emphasized in CUSMA. We were gratified to see the creation of a new sanitary and phytosanitary committee within the agreement, as well as a preservation of the dispute resolution provisions.

I'd also like to add that the economic outcomes are not the only highlight of growing Canadian beef export demand. There are also many environmental benefits that go along with a vibrant Canadian beef sector. Per kilo of production, Canadian beef has less than half the average global carbon footprint. Here, in the Canadian context, we know that a strong, viable beef industry is absolutely tied to the conservation of Canada's native grasslands, which are an at-risk ecosystem and a stable store of 1.5 billion tonnes of carbon.

In closing, we encourage the swift ratification of Bill C-4. Growth is on the horizon for export-focused Canadian agriculture, and a strong, stable north American market is absolutely fundamental to our ability to optimize that growth.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to the Canadian Labour Congress, with Mr. Yussuff.

Welcome.

3:40 p.m.

Hassan Yussuff President, Canadian Labour Congress

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the committee. My name is Hassan Yussuff. I'm the President of the Canadian Labour Congress. My colleague Chris Roberts is the director of our social policy department.

The CLC speaks on behalf of three million unionized workers, men and women across the country. It's a pleasure to join you here this afternoon.

Canada has always been a trading country. Exports are vital to the Canadian economy, our communities and thousands of jobs. Our steel and auto manufacturing, forestry, agriculture and resource industries depend on trade, and Canadians of course support a fair trade agreement that preserves good jobs, protects labour rights and preserves the ability of the government to regulate in the public interest.

I participated on the government advisory council, providing input during the renegotiations of NAFTA. Canada's unions welcome the important gains for workers continuing in the updated Canadian-U.S.-Mexico agreement. These gains include the elimination of chapter 11, the investor-state dispute settlement, the IDS provision in NAFTA; the enforceable labour rights provisions that are incorporated in the CUSMA as a standalone chapter; the inclusion of a provision restricting the import of goods produced by forced labour; increased North American content requirements for vehicles and a new labour value content requirement in auto manufacturing; the elimination of the NAFTA energy chapter, including the proportionality clause; the strengthening of NAFTA's general cultural exemption in its expansion to include digital industries; and a clear and general exception for indigenous rights. This exception means that nothing in the agreement prevents a North American government from fulfilling its legal, social, economic, cultural and moral obligations to indigenous people.

We're also pleased to see that section 232 tariffs on steel and aluminum imports have been removed. These unfair tariffs caused significant hardship for Canadian workers.

The elimination of chapter 11 is an important step in protecting our environment. Too often, the NAFTA investor-state dispute settlement process allowed investors to sue Canadians and Canada over legitimate measures taken to prevent and limit damage to the environment. The environment chapter in CUSMA includes new commitments to address environmental challenges. These address air quality, endangered species, ocean-depleting substances, conservation for biological diversity, marine pollution, illegal wildlife trade, illegal fishing and the depletion of fishing stocks.

We regret the fact the U.S. negotiators blocked any mention of climate change in the agreement. As a result, CUSMA contains no reference to the Paris Agreement, despite the addition of a number of multilateral environmental agreements in the updated text.

The CLC welcomes the important improvements in CUSMA negotiated last year by the House Democrats and the U.S. Trade Representative. These improvements include restrictions on the ability of the responding party to block the formation of a dispute settlement mechanism panel; changes to strengthen the prohibition of goods produced by forced labour; changes to strengthen the protection of workers from violence and physical intimidation; the introduction of a bilateral rapid-response labour mechanism to respond to the violations of freedom of association and collective bargaining rights; the removal of a provision requiring a 10-year market protection for biologics; and the reversal of the burden of proof on labour and environmental violations—this language now presumes that labour and environmental violations affect trade or investment between the parties unless the responding party can demonstrate otherwise.

Some areas of CUSMA continue to provide cause for concern among Canadian workers. CUSMA makes concessions in Canada's supply management of agriculture by opening markets to more U.S. dairy, ag and poultry products. These concessions will add to the pressure on Canadian producers resulting from market access granted under CETA and the CPTPP. Budget 2019 committed to providing up to $3.9 billion in support for supply–managed producers. However, workers in these supply-managed industries are not offered any protection in support if they lose their income or work due to the ratification of the CUSMA, CETA or CPTPP. We recommend that the government take steps to ensure that these workers are not disadvantaged by the implementation of CUSMA.

The CUSMA facility-specific rapid-response labour mechanism represents an important step forward in labour rights. However, there are few stipulations that unnecessarily limit the responsiveness and scope of a modern mechanism. These include a provision requiring the complainant to first ask the respondent to conduct its own investigation of a potential labour rights violation at a facility covered by the mechanism. Only once there is a disagreement over the findings can verification by a panel of labour experts be invoked. These facilities covered by the mechanism are limited to priority sectors that include manufacturing, service and mining, but exclude agriculture, forestry and the fishing industry, etc.

To summarize, the gains achieved in CUSMA are notably significant. In our view, ratification of the agreement is critical to Canadian interests and the well-being of workers in Canada. Parliament's scrutiny of Bill C-4 is an important and necessary part of the legislative process. However, we urge the parties to pass Bill C-4 without undue delay.

With that, I welcome any questions the committee might have. Thank you very much for allowing us to present here today.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you.

We'll go to the United Steelworkers and Mr. Neumann.

3:50 p.m.

Ken Neumann National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers

Thank you, Madam Chair and committee, for the invitation to speak with you here today.

I'm here as the national director of the United Steelworkers. I am representing the hundreds of thousands of Canadian workers who are members of our international union. Across North America, we represent more than 800,000 men and women who work in every sector of the Canadian and U.S. economies, many of whom work in trade-exposed industries. We also have formal links with organizations in Mexico. Our interest in ensuring that fair trade in the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement is very obvious. With me is my chief assistant Mark Rowlinson, who will help answer any questions you may have in both official languages.

First, let me say that the final version of this agreement is an improvement to both NAFTA and the original version of CUSMA signed in 2018. Our written submission goes into greater detail, but for the few moments I have before you now, I want to focus on what remains unfinished business on this file and what pitfalls may lie ahead if shortcomings are not addressed going forward.

In terms of the vital domestic steel industry, United Steelworkers applauds the requirement that 70% of steel used in vehicles must be melted and poured in North America. This represents a step forward for the Canadian steel industry. However, in my view, the seven-year timeline for this to come into place is just too long. The delay will allow the continued use of too much offshore steel in the auto supply chain, which will limit growth in the Canadian steel industry.

Our union also represents the vast majority of unionized workers in the aluminum sector, most of them in Quebec. We're very disappointed that similar provisions requiring aluminum to be smelted and poured in North America are not part of this final agreement. Prior to the conclusion of the final agreement, we outlined our position in November 2019 with a letter to Minister Freeland, urging her to ensure that aluminum articles that enjoy CUSMA benefits must be produced in Canada, Mexico or the United States from primary aluminum that's smelted and poured in these countries. Instead, the final deal contains weak language that the parties shall consider this given issue again 10 years from now. This is simply not good enough. As a result, CUSMA fails to ensure that high-quality aluminum produced by workers making community-sustaining wages will be used in automobile production in North America. Of particular concern is the growing reliance by the Mexican auto industry on scrap and billets from low-cost offshore producers due to the lack of primary smelting capacity in Mexico. As the main aluminum-producing country in CUSMA, it was incumbent on Canada to insist on this protection for Canadian aluminum producers and its workers. It's disappointing that Canada's government failed in this regard.

The USW was at the forefront of the fight for a full cancellation of the U.S. tariffs on Canadian steel for the bogus national security reasons that were put forth. Unfortunately, CUSMA side letters still leave open the possibility for future section 232 tariffs. We believe the government must continue to push for a full and sustained commitment from the United States that it will not deem steel, aluminum or other products from Canada a threat to their national security. Canada has also collected $1.2 billion from the tariffs imposed in retaliation for the U.S. section 232 measures. That money should be invested in the Canadian steel and aluminum industries, particularly into training our workforces to meet the demands of the 21st century industrial economy.

Let me now ask you to look at the forest industry. Chapter 10 of CUSMA, under “Section B: Antidumping and Countervailing Duties”, will not protect our forest sector because it does not prevent the U.S. from applying duties to softwood lumber. This dispute has never been resolved. Canada has once again missed the opportunity to permanently settle this issue before us. Meanwhile, our union represents more than 20,000 forestry workers, who have experienced layoffs and uncertainty because of this failure.

What is needed to sustain this vital industry is a combination of trade and domestic measures that promote value-added manufacturing.

As I said at the outset, the steelworkers stand in solidarity with independent Mexican trade unionists. While CUSMA improves the prospects of free collective bargaining in Mexico, the proof will be in the enforcement and remediation for suspected violations of free collective bargaining, as set out in chapter 30.

As we told this committee in the last Parliament, the labour chapter should have included core conventions of the International Labour Organization. These should be included in any future trade agreements that Canada negotiates. We are also concerned that article 23.9 is not strong enough to protect workers from discrimination.

More generally, the labour chapter will achieve its stated goal of raising the labour standards in North America only if all three governments take their role of enforcing these rights seriously. This means putting in place mechanisms that will ensure that Mexico, the U.S. and Canada are living up to their labour commitment under CUSMA.

We are disappointed that there is no gender chapter and no reference to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. All three of our countries should have committed to this 21st-century obligation to righting the wrongs of colonialism.

On procurement, our union is also concerned about allowing increased U.S. access to Canadian agricultural and dairy markets. ln contrast, Canada did not make any gains on obtaining access to the large U.S. government procurement market.

A significant misstep, in our view, is the provisions of chapter 28, which allow advance notice to corporations of any impending regulatory changes that affect food safety, rail safety and workers' health and safety, amongst others. Using gentle words like “harmonization”, this provision undermines the ability to regulate in the public interest by providing corporations with the right to challenge the implementation of these regulations. This is unacceptable and, frankly, when we look back at events like Lac-Mégantic, very dangerous.

The environment has not been given enough consideration in CUSMA. Although some improvements were made to chapter 24, there is no commitment to the Paris Agreement on climate change. Nor is there any reference to combatting climate change. This is out of step with everything that we have come to understand about the climate crisis in the 21st century

ln closing, our union will continue to advocate for a fair and progressive trade system. Rather than periodic piecemeal progress in individual trade deals, we seek a trade regime that puts working Canadians at the forefront. This means agreements that do not hamper the ability of our government to ensure high labour and environmental standards and that do not make it easy for unfairly traded goods to enter our markets from countries with poor labour and environmental standards.

Despite the improvements to CUSMA, this deal is insufficient on its own to revitalize the Canadian manufacturing industry. We must use policy measures to promote domestic manufacturing and the use of Canadian-made products in infrastructure projects. We must protect our market from dumped goods from offshore by continuing to improve our trade remedy system, including allowing unions to initiate trade cases and not merely to participate. We also demand a more meaningful analysis of the sectoral and employment impacts of trade agreements, including real consultation and collaboration.

Thank you for the opportunity. Mark and I are happy to answer any questions you may have.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Neumann.

Now we move to our questioners, beginning with Mr. Hoback.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here this afternoon as we deal with a very important issue and move forward. I'm going to start quickly with the agriculture guys and then move to Mr. Neumann because I have a few questions for him.

With regard to the NAFTA agreement from an agricultural perspective, do you see any issues here that we should really be concerned about? Is there anything that sets off an alarm, that says, oh, this could be a problem, whether it's the phytosanitary provisions or the way we deal with things at the border, or is this just business as usual and we just want to get back to being stable and keep moving forward?

Maybe, Mr. Lowe, I'll start with you and then I'll move to Mr. Innes.

3:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Chair of Foreign Trade Committee, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Bob Lowe

From the beef perspective, the important thing is stability of the markets and getting it going. We live in a pretty unstable world where trade is concerned, and this is an opportunity to stabilize that. That's what we're looking for. For beef we're basically at the same place we were with NAFTA before, and it worked very well before.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Yes, without COOL.

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Chair of Foreign Trade Committee, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Bob Lowe

Exactly, without COOL.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Innes, or Claire.

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance

Brian Innes

Yes, with respect to the rest of CAFTA's membership, we support implementation of this because it will provide stability. A number of barriers remain that prevent full and free trade in North America, but by maintaining NAFTA it enables the stability that enables us to grow, and that's why it's important to pass it.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

As conservatives, we've been very aggressively trying to move forward on this piece of legislation and this bill to get it done with, but in the same breath, we have to respect that there are problems with the legislation and that people need to have a chance...so that this government can better tell us how it is going to mitigate those problems.

In the ag sector, from what I can tell, they're pretty comfortable with most parts of it. They're happy with the bankability and stability and they don't see any reason to hold it up. They'd rather see it move forward. We hear you.

Mr. Neumann, you talked about the forestry workers. We had a forestry fund set aside for forestry workers, yet I can't tell you where it went.

Can you tell me where that money went, and can you say if it had any impact on our forestry workers?

4 p.m.

National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers

Ken Neumann

It surely hasn't had any impact on our members. As a matter of fact, our members are struggling quite significantly. The fact is that forestry is not something new to any government. There have been numerous governments before. We've been successful before the WTO, where we've won every single case. But the fact is we are still here today, and we still don't have a solution.

The Americans have the ability to impose a duty. Right now there is a duty in excess of 20%. The market is soft, and we're having layoffs. We've had some disputes. It's a tough situation.

We've not seen that big flow of money. There has been some interim adjustment, for example in the beetle situation, but overall our members are struggling, and that's why we're disappointed there has been no solution.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Neumann, I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry. I only have five minutes.

Have you talked about mitigation? Have you done any analysis of the impact on the forestry side? We've been waiting for this economic analysis from the Liberal Party for a while, and we finally got a motion forward today that it actually will come here to this committee.

We have to do our due diligence.

Have you done any economic analysis of NAFTA, or do you have anything that you could offer in regard to that?

4 p.m.

National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers

Ken Neumann

Maybe Mark can answer that. He deals with the trades.

4 p.m.

Mark Rowlinson Executive Assistant to the National Director, United Steelworkers

On the forestry sector specifically, all we know is that about eight mills have closed in western Canada in the last eight or nine months as a result of the softwood lumber duties.

The problem.... Regarding the package you mentioned that was announced by the government at the time the duties were reimposed, prices at that time in the forestry sector were very high—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

They're still too high.

4 p.m.

Executive Assistant to the National Director, United Steelworkers

Mark Rowlinson

—so none of that money really went out the door. Unfortunately, now that our members really need it, it doesn't appear to be available. That's the problem we have.