International Trade Committee on June 15th, 2022

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

The ironic thing is that when we started during the pandemic—I mentioned it to the previous panel—I had to work with our local CBSA union and Ken Turner down here to actually get them on the list of prioritization for vaccination because the CBSA officers were left off the original list. Now they're doing more work by handling people's personal property.

Is there any other example that you have of officers having to deal with actually taking people's phones or using people's material as they're trying to process themselves at the border?

[Mark Weber]

Yes. It's everything we could do to help people get the app completed properly, so they can be allowed entry into Canada. It's an incredible drain on resources. It's a drain on time.

The app is not the only problem. Our greatly reduced numbers over the years of officers working on the front line is a significant problem as well. Even if the decision is to no longer use the app, the lack of personnel at the front line will still cause delays. That's something that has to be addressed as well.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I agree. There's no doubt about that. Much more effort.... It takes a long time to actually get our officers on the training and then they're also poached at different times. It's a very important position.

I'm going to move over to Ms. Bain.

With regard to the affected tourism sector, I think what frustrates me a little bit as an MP from an area affected by tourism is that we have a new technology or a new process here that's different from the rest of the other sectors in Canada. Tourism really got the bum's rush with regard to support for the pandemic to begin with, but now it has this increased continued complication that other industries don't have.

Wouldn't it make sense to still support some of those businesses if we're actually going to have a process in place that we know damages the tourism sector?

[Lynnette Bain]

I think the continued support for the tourism industry is essential. We're seeing businesses suffer from not only the lack of visitation from the U.S. market, but from people's pocketbooks being so affected by inflation and rising prices. Businesses are worried about paying back their CEBA loans.

There's a lot of concern and angst right now among our small tourism operators with some of these financial constraints. With what was supposed to be an exciting season that they were looking to welcome, they're a bit fearful right now and hesitant to invest and expand.

There have been great supports. I think the tourism relief fund was a welcomed resource for a lot of these operators, but it was only able to touch so many.

There are those who struggle with technology, as far as applying for those supports. Understanding the technology is really an issue.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

When the western hemisphere travel initiative started and the requirement for passports, there was a grace period so that the travel industry could actually help coach their own customers on the changes that were coming and how to actually get their passports. That's not possible in this case because they can't get over there if they don't have the app to begin with. Tourism operators are terribly victimized because they can't even help their own customer base.

[Lynnette Bain]

We've developed a website called crossingmadeeasy.com. That was actually through the western hemisphere travel initiative. It's been brought back to life because we're trying to get to those people. Our phones in our office do ring off the hook from Americans who are confused. We spend a lot of time walking them through how they can cross. Sometimes they just get frustrated and give up.

I was crossing by a marine vessel on the weekend and I had to personally complete the app for eight people because they were getting so frustrated. Going over to the U.S. side was a breeze. It was two minutes. We had our approval quickly. Coming back took an hour and a half.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes. With the passport waiting times, we've had people making cottage industries at $15 an hour for students. Maybe they'll start charging people to actually make money to download the app for people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We will move on to Mr. Lewis for four minutes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. MacLachlan, I could speak for about five hours with you, sir, with regard to being an outfitter, because I myself am an outfitter. Please do reach out to my office, perhaps, because I'd love to have a chat with you on that front, specifically with regard to northern Ontario and how we can help out the outfitters.

I'm going to direct the last three minutes and 45 seconds of my questions to Mr. Weber.

Mr. Weber, my riding of Essex neighbours Mr. Masse's riding. I also know Mr. Turner. In my role as shadow minister for labour, I've spoken to Mr. Turner at length.

I understand it to be true...and I would love to hear your feedback, sir, with regard to the frustration of CBSA officers working at the borders and the redundancy of the job they're doing. Could you please speak to that a little bit?

[Mark Weber]

Yes. Absolutely I can. We're talking specifically about southern Ontario, but I hear it across the country, everywhere I go. Our job is to keep Canadians safe. Our job is to enforce laws at the border and to facilitate travel. The enforcement aspect of our job is almost gone at this point. Our job is almost predominantly getting travellers through as quickly as we possibly can, helping people fill out the ArriveCAN app.

Again, the technologies we put in place and the technologies that are being planned with eGate—PIK machines at the airport are already there—greatly reduce the number of travellers we interact with. They greatly reduce our ability to interdict anything that Canadians want us to be interdicting. The job has become predominantly about facilitation and just helping people fill out the app. Again, it's kind of an assembly line: Just keep the line moving.

The CBSA has come to us with a summer action plan. They're looking at such things as mandatory overtime for our officers just to take care of that backlog because of the lack of staff and the extra time involved due to the ArriveCAN app. People are being pulled off assignments to put staff back on the front line. It is a desperate situation.

We're talking about the ArriveCAN app, but the lack of frontline staff at our borders does not go away after the summer. That's been around for a long time. We had that little reprieve during the pandemic, but that situation has been getting progressively worse for years.

Again, the focus is not about our doing our jobs. It's simply about moving people through as quickly as possible.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Through you, Madam Chair, I'll go back to Mr. Weber.

Let's talk about the staffing for a moment. My biggest concern is that, again, it's the busiest international border in North America, with the largest amount of commerce and trade going back and forth. We're not only talking about folks who go back and forth to Michigan to grab some groceries for the day or to go watch a ball game. We're also talking about people who are literally keeping our commerce going.

I'm curious, sir; do you believe that it may be true that keeping ArriveCAN could be an opportunity for the government to cut back on staff, on CBSA officers?

[Mark Weber]

That's absolutely the fear. That's essentially what we've seen happen at our airports. As the PIK machines have taken over, we've seen the number of staff working the front line at the airports go down and down and down over the years, to the point where we don't have the people in place to interact with travellers and verify their declarations. When it's busy, you're almost going purely with what the traveller's declaration is. That enforcement aspect, or verifying declarations....

I mean, obviously, anyone who's trying to bring something into Canada that they shouldn't, or is coming into Canada to do something that they shouldn't be doing, is never, ever putting it on their declaration. The real fear is that the expansion of the ArriveCAN app will see that expanded to land borders as well, where you predeclare, you go through an automated eGate kind of system, and you have absolutely no interaction with the border services officer.

That would allow the CBSA to reduce those frontline staff members again. That's really the fear. Again, I've not heard specific plans of that for the ArriveCAN app, but one could see it going there. Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Mr. Virani, you have four minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'll go a little bit fast here. I appreciate that most people have been pretty straightforward in indicating that they're not public health experts. That would include yours truly.

Mr. Agnew, I'll ask you some questions first, since I'm most familiar with you and you're most familiar with this committee. It's good to see you again.

You start out by saying that obviously businesses in Canada were heavily affected by COVID. That's a fair statement, right? I think Mr. MacLachlan indicated that a lot of supports were put in place during COVID, including the wage subsidy, CEBA and things like that, which helped keep some businesses afloat and retain workers. That's fair?

[Mark Agnew]

Absolutely.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

And those would have applied to businesses that you represent, the same types of businesses that David was mentioning.

The basic proposition is that limiting the spread of COVID just helps people stay engaged with the economy. Is that fair?

[Mark Agnew]

That would be correct.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Do we agree that vaccines help limit the spread of COVID—perhaps not every variant, as we're seeing with omicron—but for the most part they help limit the spread of COVID? Is that fair?

[Mark Agnew]

That seems to be what the Public Health Agency tells me about reducing the adverse medical outcomes, hospitalization, etc.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I appreciate neither of us is medically trained, but I would agree with you. I'm just trying to put to you things that I take as generally understood.

What I remember is that during the height of the pandemic, businesses that tangentially you represent were asking me about how to protect their staff. That's when things like vaccine mandates started to get mooted as ideas. They were saying, the servers in my restaurant don't want to come to work because they're worried about the patrons who are coming in and whom they'll be serving at the table, and they'd like to know that those persons were vaccinated. It would make them feel more comfortable. It helped the business owner of the restaurant retain the servers.

Is that fair? Did you hear similar commentary during the course of the pandemic?

[Mark Agnew]

Not everyone was uniformly happy about the mandates being imposed in the business community, but certainly it was a boost of confidence for a lot of folks.

I think, though, given where we are now in the pandemic, the attitude within the business community has certainly changed about how to apply vaccine mandates.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm hearing that loudly and clearly, and that instinct informs part of the decision you saw getting changed last week.

It seems to me where we're at is that if we understand that vaccines help limit the spread of many COVID variants—but perhaps not the most recent one—and that understanding vaccinations status helps businesses writ large, then it's a question of what we're doing in terms of checking vaccination status. And if we're checking it, how do we check it?

I'm going to turn to you, Mr. Weber. You've been pretty blunt, so I'm going to be pretty blunt.

I wanted to put to you the evidence that we heard in the last half hour, which is that checking on paper could take six to seven minutes versus checking an app where, if it's being done correctly, it's taking 45 seconds.

I presume you heard that testimony. Do you disagree with that testimony you heard from Ms. Lévesque and Mr. Vinette?

[Mark Weber]

I absolutely do. Those times are absolutely inaccurate.