Evidence of meeting #34 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sentence.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Blair  Chief, Toronto Police Service
Hon. Michael Bryant  Attorney General, Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General
Peter Rosenthal  Professor, Department of Mathematics, University of Toronto, As an Individual
John Muise  Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness
Margaret Beare  Former Director, Nathanson Centre for the Study of Organized Crime and Corruption, As an Individual
Andy Rady  Ontario Representative on the Board, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
William Trudell  Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
George Biggar  Vice-President, Policy, Planning and External Relations, Legal Aid Ontario
Fiona Sampson  Director of litigation, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Jonathan Rudin  Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto

11:55 a.m.

John Muise Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

Thank you, Mr. Hanger, members of the committee.

My name is John Muise. I'm a retired 30-year veteran of the Toronto Police Service, as I think you know, and I'm here as the director of public safety for the Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness. We certainly welcome the opportunity and appreciate the invite to speak about Bill C-10.

I would add, too, that our organization is a not-for-profit charitable organization and we do not take government funding.

Previously, our organization toured 10 sites around Ontario and spoke to 150 front-line criminal justice professionals, crime victims, and survivors. They told us a lot of things that they felt were wrong with the criminal justice system, but, in general terms, a recurring theme was with respect to the kinds of sentences handed down in courtrooms, and specifically the lack of proportionality with respect to violent crimes.

We suspect that if we did the same kind of round table discussions in other provinces across the country, the concerns would be identical.

I should also add that I've provided a brief to the committee.

Mr. Ménard, my apologies. I just completed the brief recently. I wish it was ready for translation right away, but I'm a one-man band, so I work to deadline, like many people.

Canadian law has always recognized that persons who repeatedly commit offences merit lengthier custodial sentences. In addition, Parliament has mandated by statute that repeat offenders receive lengthier sentences than first-time offenders. Mandatory minimums are nothing new. These principles are reflected in a number of mandatory minimum sentences for both first time and repeat offenders for a variety of crimes.

Certainly we know also that from a constitutional perspective, the Supreme Court of Canada, in Regina v. Morrisey 2000, has ruled in favour of the current mandatory minimum of four years for a conviction involving a firearm and commented—

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I'm sorry to interrupt you just for a moment. Just slow down a little, because the interpreters can't quite keep up to your rapid way of presenting.

Noon

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

No problem.

November 23rd, 2006 / noon

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of the current mandatory minimum of four years for a conviction involving a firearm and commented specifically on the wanton and reckless disregard displayed as a result of the use of a firearm by the offender.

In addition, it is important to note that for those offences where the mandatory minimum sentences increased on the second, third, and subsequent offences, in terms of this bill it is only in relation to the specific offences included in the proposed legislation. So this government bill does not include any other crimes. It is about a continuation of the unlawful possession and use of firearms. In other words, it is about those offenders, particularly repeat offenders, who make the choice to possess, acquire, and use firearms illegally.

If indeed our culture here in Canada is about the proper licensing, storage, and possession of firearms, surely the same strict standards should be brought to bear on those who choose to brandish firearms for a criminal purpose. If you want to safeguard Canadians, we would suggest that you can't have one without the other.

Although we suspect that commentators on the other side of this debate feel otherwise, we would go so far as to say that, if crafted appropriately—and we think this bill is—mandatory minimum sentences of imprisonment are generally consistent with the fundamental principle that a sentence must be proportionate to the gravity of the offence and the degree of responsibility of the offender.

Sections 718 and 718.1 of the Criminal Code—you talked about them earlier—set out the principles of sentencing that must be followed by the court. The court is allowed significant latitude when deciding how to balance what are often very disparate principles. Although many judges know intuitively what the balance is, over the years Parliament, from time to time, has weighed in with a variety of sentencing, parole, and post-sentence order amendments in response to concerns expressed by the community about public safety and justice in particular.

It is entirely appropriate for Parliament to provide specific statutory direction ultimately to the court. Most recently, it has done so with respect to mandatory minimum sentences for certain offences committed against children, in Bill C-2, and previously for certain serious firearm offences. The community expresses its revulsion to certain kinds of crimes, usually violent ones, and if parliamentarians are listening, they respond in an appropriate way. We think this enhancement of the current mandatory minimum sentence provisions is precisely that.

What about the impact of mandatory minimum sentences on crime? As the legislative summary from the Library of Parliament that was made available makes clear, the studies to date have mixed results in terms of the impact of mandatory minimum sentences and increased rates of incarceration and the deterrent effect and impact on recidivism rates. Lies, damn lies, and statistics, as they say.

Rather than focus on whether these proposed amendments have a deterrent effect or not—and I would echo Chief Blair and Attorney General Bryant's comments on the deterrent impact—it is our position that targeting the most violent repeat offenders, and that's what people are who use firearms or possess firearms for an unlawful purpose, and locking them up for sustained periods of time will have a direct effect on the crime rate. It is an undeniable reality that a disproportionately small number of offenders are responsible for a disproportionately large number of offences. This axiom applies to repeat offenders who use firearms in the commission of their crimes.

Although they didn't get it entirely correct south of the border—California's “three strikes and you're out” law for felonies, including pizza theft, comes to mind—a precipitous drop greater than the drop in Canada over the same time period in the violent crime rate south of the 49th parallel went hand in hand with a crackdown on violent crime. A variety of studies done by American criminologists, including Marvell and Moody, and Kovandzic, confirm a reduction in homicides and violent crime rates.

It's about incapacitation. How many robberies with a firearm can you do when you are behind bars? If the right offenders are targeted, which we believe this bill does, it works.

Is violent crime on the rise in Canada? When it comes to statistics about the rates of crime, there's no denying that a whole lot of cherry-picking goes on, and it happens on both sides. Even the criminologists, lawyers, law professors, and other academics who are quick to remind you about sticking to the facts and getting it right are sometimes guilty of relying on short-term or year-to-year increases or decreases to make their cases. This is both misleading and inappropriate; some would call it downright dishonest.

I believe the committee clerk has given you a page from Juristat. In the middle column, check the violent crime rate. As you all know, it's calculated on the basis of 100,000 population. Dating back to 1962, it shows an increase from 221 per 100,000 in 1962, to 1,084 in 1992, levelling off since then to slightly under 1,000 for the past nine years. I would suggest to you that this is an extraordinary increase by any measure, and the levelling off that has taken place over the last dozen years still has us light years away from those good old days in the sixties.

Although the CCA did not have access to corresponding long-term tables for firearm offences, we are confident that they would mirror or exceed the general violent crime rate. We encourage the committee to obtain the same long-term table from the justice ministry for firearm-related offences. In addition, violent crime as a proportion of the overall crime rate is up over that same time period.

On gun play in Toronto over the past 30 years--I know Chief Blair spoke about much of this--my experience is anecdotal, but I want to share it with you. We suspect the same things that occur in Toronto are occurring in other urban jurisdictions across the country. I had a very unique perspective as a law enforcement officer on the Toronto Police Service, starting in 1976 until I retired this year. In those early years it was exceedingly rare, even in the busiest downtown divisions, that offenders arrested were in possession of illegal handguns or semi-automatic weapons. Even the most organized narcotics and drug traffickers did not carry or possess these kinds of firearms. I know because I worked in the drug squad, made hundreds of buys, and kicked in hundreds of doors from 1982 to 1986. We rarely seized a handgun. Uniformed, plain-clothes, and undercover officers rarely confronted these kinds of weapons.

That changed in the late eighties and coincided with the crack trade--free-based cocaine--and continued into the early 1990s and onwards with the proliferation of American-style street gangs, usually arranged along ethnic lines, that now commit crimes in support of territory and profit. The results are in full view in our housing projects and on our crowded downtown streets. There are drive-by shootings and shots fired because of perceived disrespect--something that, as Chief Blair indicated, was usually handled in the past with a punch in the nose. There are brutal and often random home invasions. No self-respecting crack dealer will leave home without his trusty Glock pistol or 9 mm handgun, and whole communities are marginalized and living in fear.

We have a new vocabulary of violent and brutal crime, and the violent crime statistic that I provided from Juristat reflects that reality. It's not Andy of Mayberry and it's not Leave it to Beaver any more.

What about the amendments? I think this is the important work the committee is doing.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Muise, how much more time do you need to conclude?

12:10 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

About two minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Okay, very good.

12:10 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Our review of the amendments suggests the following conditions and principles are in play that ensure that these amendments are constitutionally viable. The ability to proceed summarily continues to exist for those offences where this option was already in place. The escalation of the minimum sentence occurs only where the offender has previous convictions for just these firearm-related crimes. We believe the sentence escalation is proportional and appropriate. Where an offender has not committed one of the listed offences for a period of 10 years, the escalating structure of sentencing for repeat offences is no longer applicable. Finally, the same incredibly generous parole laws, including automatic statutory release at the completion of two-thirds of a sentence--except for the tiniest minority of dangerous inmates--is still in place.

Our suggestions for specific changes to the proposed amendments are as follows. As the legislative summary points out, it is unclear why manslaughter and criminal negligence causing death are not treated the same way as the other eight most serious firearm offences. As the summary indicates, this is “particularly so, given that previous convictions for these two offences count for sentencing on the remaining eight”. It's our recommendation that those two offences are included in that most serious list for the up to 10 years.

In addition, building on what Ms. Barnes said, we are also unclear why a regular firearm has not been included along with the restricted or prohibited weapon in terms of the five-year sentence. We suggest you amend that same section and just include the regular firearm with restricted and prohibited, making them all five years along with the organized crime one. Just fix it there; it's already at four, so make it five.

Moving to the two new offences, the creation of new offences where other appropriate offences already exist is something that I often view with skepticism. Much like the practice of increasing maximum sentences, they often are measures designed to give the impression of getting tough on crime. More often than not, nothing could be further from the truth.

In the case of these two new offences, like Chief Blair and Mr. Bryant, we support them. We know the end result of these thefts, these break and enters, and these robberies. In light of the fact that they include escalating mandatory minimum sentences, we think those are appropriate additions. For that reason we support their inclusion.

The best way to put all of these in perspective is to take one of these proposed sections and illustrate how it might work in the real world. An offender shoots somebody with a handgun and is convicted of attempted murder because he almost kills him. The minimum mandatory sentence is five years, which he receives. He gets out of jail and commits the same offence again, or one of the other nine most serious of crimes, again committed with a firearm. So he almost kills somebody again. This time the minimum is seven years. He gets out of jail and does the same thing. Remember, it still has to be the same crime or one of the other nine most serious crimes. This time the minimum is 10 years.

Against the backdrop of our excessively generous parole laws and these kinds of offenders, who almost certainly have lengthy criminal records with other convictions, are these sentences really out of whack in terms of the gravity of the offence? We ask you to reflect on that.

Finally, we are encouraged by the comments of the member for Winnipeg Centre, Mr. Patrick Martin, who has seen his community ravaged by gun crime and who recognizes that this public safety legislation will help tackle this growing problem.

In addition, we are heartened by the public policy statements of at least two of the three opposition parties calling for enhanced mandatory minimum sentences in the lead-up to the last election. We trust that those views have not changed since then.

We encourage you to consider the two minor amendments we have recommended with respect to the most serious section. With or without these two amendments, the CCAA supports speedy passage of this legislation, and we look forward to all-party support to get this bill through the House of Commons and the Senate.

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thanks very much to both of you for your presentations.

I'm going to go to questions now, starting with Mr. Murphy.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very impressed with the evidence today from everyone. I know everyone feels very strongly about their submissions.

In balancing it all, however, it seems to me some of the most compelling evidence came from the chief of police who used the example of Jamestown—I'm not from here, so I don't know where that would be—and how basically he forced the service to crack down on a problem with the tools they had, which led me to believe the existing laws, policies, and deployment of resources appeared to work in that case. He sort of unravelled that ball of yarn by saying we've made the charges, but we don't know if they're going to stick. To me, that is a bit anecdotal, despite the fact that he said the crime rate is down in specific instances. It remains to be seen, with all due respect to the chief.

I was also struck with this call for evidence-based conclusions, and Mr. Rosenthal made the point—I could hoist him by his own petard and ask where he gets the statement that people don't think of the penalty just when they get caught. But I don't want to waste my time with that, because I'm sure he has the studies to back it up and will give us those. I do thank you for coaching me towards this evidence-based thing.

The thrust to my question is—because, Mr. Muise, you made a number of comments—am I right that your evidence comes from your 30 years of experience at the Toronto Police Service, the front-line discussions you recently had with 150 people who are part of the criminal justice system, including victims, and the various studies you referred to? You gave a lot of anecdotal evidence. You gave a lot of opinionated, heartfelt evidence.

Can you tell me about this 150 people round table thing you had?

12:15 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Sure. Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Is there a sheet that says these were the participants, or that sort of—?

12:15 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Yes.

I don't want to overwhelm the committee, and I want to stick to Bill C-10. Let me start by saying my evidence is informed by 30 years as a police officer. It's informed by the round tables that were done as part of our “Martin's Hope” report.

I'm going to give you a copy of the report, because I have a couple of copies, in which the names of the 150 front-line criminal justice professionals, crime victims, and survivors—except for some of the victims' first names because they didn't want to be identified—are included in the back of the report.

In fairness to me, I might add that it was also informed by some evidence-based information. Juristat didn't pop out of my fertile imagination. I think it's as factual as it gets, and it's over the course of 40 years. I challenge anybody to suggest that this is not the proper way to look at the evidence.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

It's there, and I want to get onto another question.

As you said, violent crime is on the decrease. More importantly, you said that if gun control is important, those who do things with guns should be dealt with importantly or heavily.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Correct.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Those weren't your words, but I'm paraphrasing.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

You heard the chief, and perhaps the Attorney General mentioned it too, that in the toolbox they have the long gun registry, which they don't feel should be scrapped. I'll ask you to agree with that, if you would, but more importantly, guns.

You made it clear when you were first on the force in the 1980s--and, incidentally, when I lived here, it was obviously a very pure place--that there wasn't as much gun involvement. Now it's very prevalent. It seems to me that the theme here is guns, guns, guns. What are they going to do about gun control? I asked the chief this, and he moved on to.... We don't think this is the worst bill that ever came down the road, but it's certainly not a cure for the gun epidemic, by any stretch. Nobody says it is.

On a blue sky day, what's the gun control cure?

12:15 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Let me start by saying that like the chief and Minister Bryant, I agree that when dealing with any crime, including gun crime, there's a range of responses across the continuum. Clearly, one of them is legislation, and that's what we're talking about today. Obviously I support this legislation. I supported Bill C-9, the conditional sentencing legislation, as it was previously written, and I'm not happy with the result.

But having said that, I also support proper and lawful storage. I like the fact that people have safes in their homes where they keep their guns. We recognize legal gun ownership. I like the emphasis on those things.

Do I support either registration or licensing, or some form of a way of telling us, as a community, and particularly as police officers? Absolutely. I was a police officer for 30 years, and access to that information is good. I leave that to Parliament to sort out what that looks like, whether it's a registration system or a licensing system. As long as that information is accessible to the police, I would support that.

Because you've asked the question and I feel I need to answer in its totality, do I support spending $1 billion on a system that doesn't return $1 billion in terms of public safety, no. If there is something Parliament can come up with that is more cost efficient and still allows for some sort of registration or licensing, I would support that. Ultimately I do support some form of that.

I hope that answers your questions.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you.

Sorry, Mr. Murphy, your time is up.

Mr. Ménard.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you very much.

I'm going to speak in French.

I was glad to hear from professor Rosenthal, who I did not know previously. Your testimony has brought two things to mind. The first is that the Supreme Court allowed mandatory minimum sentences across the board, except in the Smith decision. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms came into effect in 1982, the decision in Smith was handed down in 1987 at which point, in order for a sentence to be overturned under section 12 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, two criteria must be met. First, the sentence must violate the principle of human dignity, and second, it must be grossly disproportionate. When defining a grossly disproportionate sentence the following factors are taken into consideration: the effect of the sentence, the offender's character and the circumstances in which the crime was committed.

Court challenges are not really what scares me. I don't think the sentences will be overturned because in Morrissey, Gold, Latimer and many other decisions, the court has very much deferred to parliamentarians. The problem is that I do not believe mandatory minimum sentences are effective. The government has not managed to table a single study proving a link between deterrents and a repeat offence.

Let's think about this logically. In 1995, a bill was adopted. The legislation set out 10 mandatory minimum sentences for offences committed with a firearm. Since then, either offences committed with firearms have increased, or they have decreased. Which ever the case may be, this has something to do with the legislation enacted in 1995. The Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics told us yesterday that, generally speaking, the number of crimes committed with a firearm has not increased in Canada. Moreover, this assertion is back up by the statistics.

If you look at the statistics on violent crimes, it is clear that, both absolutely and relatively speaking, they have dropped in number, with the exception of two places in Canada, where the number of crimes with a firearm has increased: Toronto and Vancouver. Should this be of concern? Yes, it should, and that is why, earlier, I tried to find out from the chief of police and the solicitor general what they think can be done to address very specific situations. It would be fabulous if we could tell ourselves, as legislators, that a quick fix solution exists, namely an increase in mandatory minimum sentences. But that is not the solution. At any rate, it is not clear, on the basis of the scientific data, that that is the solution.

What we do need to look at, is how we intend to work, for example, in dealing with street gangs. Clearly, the whole street gang phenomenon is a matter for concern. It is also a matter of concern in Montreal. But why do young people join street gangs? It may have something to do with poverty, desperation, and also the fact that some young people are quite simply a lost cause. Nor are we naive.

I would like to hear what you have to say on this issue. Mr. Rosenthal,I would be very happy for you to react, but I think this is particularly an issue for John. Do you have any statistics which would suggest that mandatory minimum sentencing is a deterrent? Any answer must be based on somewhat empirical research; and must not be based on an impression or one's intuition. You can't pass legislation that way, otherwise we would be reinstating the death penalty. The death penalty is the best way to eradicate offenders. So, when you say mandatory minimum sentencing is the best way of controlling offenders, it is a spurious argument.

12:25 p.m.

Director, Public Safety, Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness

John Muise

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

I'm not here asking to bring capital punishment back. You did make one point about the crime rate being down. I think categorically that's absolutely not true. I think violent crime is way up, and again--let me finish--I would encourage the committee to get the data that speaks specifically to firearms offences, which is similar to this data, the data over 40 years that shows the rise in the rate of violent crime. I think you'll find the same thing with firearms.

In addition, to repeat what I said in my presentation, the studies.... Interestingly enough, the Library of Parliament and Statistics Canada don't seem to have much time for the studies south of the border, but criminologists south of the border.... And I agree about the deterrent effect; I agree with Mr. Bryant and I agree with Chief Blair that there's a deterrent effect on some and not on others. This is about incapacitation, and what the studies tell us, in my estimation, is that where you identify, particularly if you get it right, that small number of offenders who commit a disproportionate number of serious crimes--and I would suggest that the people who put firearms in their hands, by and large, are those people--and incapacitate them for as long a period as possible, the end result will be a reduction in the crime rate. I think that's what happened in the main south of the border in terms of the precipitous drop in violent crime.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Rosenthal wishes to speak briefly, not me.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I will permit Mr. Rosenthal to speak, yes.

Thank you.