Justice Committee on May 16th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

At this particular meeting we'll have the privilege of hearing from our justice minister, Minister Toews. Minister Toews has a presentation to make, and I would ask him to begin his presentation.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Minister of Justice]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to meet with the members of the justice committee to discuss the main spending estimates of the Department of Justice. My deputy minister, John Sims, is joining me today.

The Department of Justice plays a vital role in Canadian society. It promotes Canada's rights, freedoms, and laws; it provides high-quality legal counsel to the Government of Canada; and it ensures that Canada's system of justice is accessible, efficient, and fair. The work we do at the justice department has a very real impact on the lives of individual Canadians. Through our work on policies and legislation, we strive to create safer and healthier communities that benefit us all.

As Canadians we have always taken pride in our democratic society, our traditionally low crime rates, and our safe communities. I'm sure that most of us remember a time when we left our homes unlocked and felt safe letting our kids play outside unattended. Over the generations, our society has changed. Today we lock our doors, and we are more watchful over our children. We recognize the dangers they face, dangers such as swarming, gangs, and drugs.

While Canada's justice system has evolved over the years, its evolution has not kept pace with Canadian society. It is now facing increased pressure to adapt to the needs of 21st century Canada. That is why Canadians voted for change. Canada's justice system needs new solutions to our modern challenges.

The new government has laid out its agenda for change through five key priorities: passing the Federal Accountability Act; cutting the GST; making our communities safer by cracking down on gang, gun, and drug crime; giving parents a choice in child care; and establishing a guarantee for patient wait times.

As Minister of Justice and Attorney General, I will be working closely with my colleague Stockwell Day, the Minister of Public Safety, to deliver on the new government's priority of making our streets and communities safer by tackling crime.

Today I'd like to discuss some of our new government's priorities for strengthening our justice system. I'm confident that the actions we take to achieve these priorities will result in reforms that will mean everyone, particularly the most vulnerable members of society, can feel safe and secure in their communities.

The first thing we need to change is the way we deal with serious offenders. It is time for Canada to get tough on violent crime. This is an issue that Canadians want addressed, and the new government is committed to ensuring serious consequences for serious crime. But tougher penalties for criminals are only part of the solution.

We also recognize that the most effective way to reduce crime and victimization is to prevent it from ever happening. That is why we are also committed to supporting crime prevention initiatives that will strike at the root causes of criminal behaviour. We will give young people the knowledge and tools to make good decisions so that they can avoid the factors that place them at risk of coming into contact with the criminal justice system.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to say that we have already begun to take action on our commitment to strengthen Canada's justice system. Earlier this month I tabled two bills in the House of Commons that will reform our laws so that serious crimes are met with significant consequences.

One bill deals with sentencing and will put an end to the use of conditional sentences, including house arrest, for serious and violent offences. The reforms in this bill will tighten up the law, removing the option for serious, violent, and sexual offenders to receive a conditional sentence. The reforms will ensure a cautious and more appropriate use of conditional sentences, reserving them for less serious offences that pose a lower risk to community safety.

The other bill we introduced will toughen sentences for crimes involving firearms by enhancing the mandatory minimum penalty provisions of the Criminal Code. Under the proposed legislation, serious offences involving firearms will be subject to very tough sentences. If an offence is gang-related or if a restricted or prohibited firearm such as a handgun is used, the minimum penalty will be five years on a first offence, seven years if the accused has one prior conviction for a firearm-related offence, and ten years if the accused has more than one prior conviction for firearm-related offences. Other firearm-related offences, such as firearm trafficking and smuggling or the new offence of robbery where a firearm is stolen, will also be subject to higher escalating minimum penalties.

With these two bills, the new government is meeting its commitment to protect Canadian families and communities by tackling gun, gang, and drug violence. We will be better equipped to fight organized crime and to keep dangerous offenders off our streets.

In addition to these sentencing reform bills, later this spring we will undertake the first step in our plan to protect children. We will table a bill that will raise the age of consent for sexual relations from 14 to 16 years of age and rename it as the “age of protection”. This change will bring us in line with most of the world. It is long overdue, and it is particularly important in the age of the Internet, when young people are targeted by cyber-predators.

These are bold first steps in reform of the law. In addition to this and other legislation, we are developing enhanced strategies for law enforcement, crime prevention, and correctional services as we address key justice issues that are of serious concern to Canadians.

One of these issues is drugs. The number of marijuana grow operations has increased dramatically in Canada, spreading into suburban and rural communities. The production and distribution of drugs such as crack cocaine, crystal meth, and ecstasy have increased as well.

The time has come to make more serious efforts to clean up our streets by tackling drug crime. We must work to ensure the safety and health of our young people by helping them make the right choices to stay away from illegal drugs. In this vein, we have made it clear that we have no intention of decriminalizing drugs, because we want to send the right message to young people about their dangers.

The sentencing reforms I mentioned earlier will play an important role in tackling major drug crime. In addition, we will look to make precursor chemicals of crystal meth, such as pseudoephedrine, harder to get; introduce a national drug strategy, with particular emphasis on youth, that will encompass all drugs in implementing a nationwide awareness campaign to dissuade young people from using drugs; expedite deportation of non-citizens convicted of drug trafficking, drug importation, or running grow ops; and restore the Canada ports police.

Another crime that we need to deal with is street racing. Our cities are not racetracks, and the time has come to get rid of the racers who pose a threat to the safety of our citizens. Through criminal justice reform, we will send a strong message that racing will no longer be tolerated on Canadian streets. Despite the prospect of serious bodily harm, or death, this dangerous phenomenon continues in Canada. It is clear that people who engage in street racing have no regard for their own safety or the safety of others. The stories are tragic. Over the past few years, there have been a number of highly publicized incidents where drivers, their passengers, and innocent victims have been killed. Since January alone, three men in Vancouver, one in Edmonton, and a Toronto taxicab driver have all allegedly been killed because of street racing.

The Government of Canada will work to keep these criminals off our streets. We are committed to combatting this dangerous activity by getting tough on those offenders who so recklessly endanger human life.

In addition to tackling these crime issues, we will also reform the law with respect to our parole and bail processes. Parole must be a privilege to be earned, not a right to be demanded. We will examine a number of options on this front, including creating a presumption of dangerous offender designation for anyone convicted and sentenced to federal custody for three violent or sexual offences; repealing section 745.6 of the Criminal Code, the so-called faint hope clause, that allows a criminal serving a life sentence to apply for early parole; replacing statutory release, the law entitling a prisoner to parole after serving two-thirds of his sentence, with earned parole; toughening parole provisions once you have been convicted of committing a crime while on parole, eliminating parole for life after the third such conviction; preventing courts from giving extra credit for pre-trial custody for persons denied bail because of their past criminal record or for violating bail; and creating a reverse onus for bail hearings for anyone charged with an indictable firearms offence.

For all of these initiatives, I look forward to working with Parliament, law enforcement, corrections, prosecutors, and my provincial counterparts to develop effective new policies.

One last key issue I wish to discuss is crime prevention. Our government, as I have discussed, is focused on tackling the pressing issues of gun crime, criminal gains, and drugs, but this government also recognizes that it is equally important to prevent criminal behaviour before it has taken root. We will address the root causes of crime by supporting communities and families with effective social programs and sound economic policies. Such efforts will include working with the provinces, municipalities, police, and community leaders in areas threatened by gun and gang violence to support programs that reach out to young people. We must help them recognize the dangers of violence in their schools and communities so that they reject gang and gun violence.

The efforts will include supporting results-oriented, community-based initiatives for addictions treatment, training, and rehabilitation of those in trouble with the law, and investing in community-based educational, sporting, cultural, and vocational opportunities for young people at risk. By working with the provinces, territories, and other partners, this government will support solutions that will help end the cycle of violence that can lead to broken communities and broken lives.

I am pleased to note, Mr. Chairman, that Budget 2006 reflects the Government of Canada's commitment to crack down on crime. Highlights from the budget include $161 million for 1,000 more RCMP officers and federal prosecutors to focus on such law enforcement priorities as drugs and border security, including gun smuggling; $37 million for the RCMP to expand its national training academy at Depot to accommodate these new officers and build the capacity to train more officers in the future; funds set aside to expand Canada's correctional facilities to house the expected increase in inmates as a result of changes in sentencing rules; $20 million for communities to prevent youth crime, with a focus on guns, gangs, and drugs; and $26 million to give victims a more effective voice in the federal corrections and justice system and to give victims greater access to services, such as travel to appear at parole hearings.

Budget 2006 presents a balanced approach to law and order spending. I believe these investments will help to strengthen our justice system so that it better meets the needs of our modern Canadian society.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you and your committee members for the important work that you do. It's an honour for me to take part in this process as Canada's newest justice minister. As I mentioned at the onset, Canada's system of justice contributes to the well-being of Canadians in many ways, but it also faces many challenges. I believe these initiatives, which we will pursue over the coming months, will help to modernize Canada's justice system by getting tough on crime as well as addressing root causes of crime. We will make Canada a safer place to live.

I welcome your questions and look forward to your feedback.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you very much, Minister.

The rotation for questioning is Liberals for seven minutes, NDP for seven, and the Bloc for seven minutes, and then our party, the Conservative Party, will have their opportunity.

We're starting with Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much. We welcome you to the committee.

It won't be the first time you'll be here. We'll go into the legislative agenda of this government at committee when the bills are before the committee, but these are the estimates and it's about spending.

What we need to understand, first of all, is that all parties are concerned with an effective criminal justice system, and we're all concerned with accessibility to that justice system. We know that many people, more and more people, don't have access to legal aid.

I'd like to point you to the transfer payments. I see there are items not required. The contributions in support of legal aid pilot projects seem to be ending, from $955,000. But what is most interesting to me is that we have criminal legal aid, and I know there is a concern about civil legal aid, Minister.

The contributions to provinces to assist in the operation of legal aid systems: first of all, our main estimates for 2005-06 were about $119,827,000. They seem to have gone down to $79,827,000. What you've put on the table is a legislative agenda that's going to potentially put more people into prisons, and what you've just talked about is your responsibility, as minister, to make sure the system is fair and just and accessible.

I'd like to understand where you are with your discussions with your provincial counterparts, both on the need for more legal aid, or potentially even more than we have currently--why this figure has gone down. Perhaps Mr. Sims can help you with the detail, because it is the detail that I'd like to....

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes. Thank you.

I'm glad to hear you affirm you are concerned about our criminal justice system. I don't think anyone...and certainly nothing in my remarks would indicate other parties aren't concerned about access to criminal justice or the effective running of our justice system. As well, legal aid in Canada is a key component of the ability to access justice.

As you are aware, funding for legal aid ended a few months ago. When we took over the government, we realized we had a problem on our hands in terms of ensuring there was no break in the service or funding of legal aid. What I did was extend, through our government, legal aid funding for a period of one year, which will then give me an opportunity to examine the issues surrounding legal aid, including some of the issues you have mentioned.

The extension for one year was carried over on the same basis as last year's funding. It was simply extended for one year. What happened, as I understand it, and I'm not an accountant, is this doesn't show up in the main estimates, but it does show up in the fall supplementary estimates. So there has been no decrease in legal aid. I think there may be a couple of other examples throughout the estimates that will indicate a similar situation. But I can say we extended it for one year while discussion with the provinces and territories continue.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I'd like to go on with some of the youth issues. Again, I'll take you to transfer payments, the youth justice renewal fund, again last year...I acknowledge the accounting situations you're talking about, but still there's a story to be told here when we see drops from $1.1 million to approximately $565,000 in youth justice renewal funds.

We've also seen situations where you've got decreases to provinces and territories in support of youth justice services: the intensive rehabilitation custody and supervision program, down from $11 million to $6,900,000. These are the numbers you've got there.

What we have to understand, Minister, is where is the strategy going with your trying to create the environment where we have good sentencing principles at play? You have done nothing in any of the legislation thus far tabled that would change section 718 of our code, the sentencing principles, which include crime prevention, rehabilitation, and all the other principles of sentencing. What's going on here with respect to the youth criminal justice contributions inside your department, and the provinces concerned?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you again for the question.

The federal government financially assists the provinces and territories in the provision of services to young offenders under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The last round of five-year funding agreements that supported the early implementation of the act was extended by one year, until March 31, 2007. In effect, as I understand it from the deputy minister, the funding has again not gone down and we've extended it for one year.

I would point out that many of these were related to the implementation of the act. As you will recall, the former government said there were some start-up costs that would be needed, but those costs would not continue beyond a certain point. We've now extended it by one year, and this will give me an opportunity to in fact examine what is necessary in terms of funding. That will take place with the provinces and the territories.

There is an interesting trend as a result of the Youth Criminal Justice Act in which there was an indication that custody was down about 30%, if my figures are correct. In any event, it was a substantial reduction in custody. It doesn't necessarily say that the act is working or that youth are less involved in crime; it simply says there are 30% fewer youths in custody.

If that is in fact the case, then one has to ask this question: where is the money that the federal government has brought forward to support youth programs going, and is that money then being used in other capacities? It's a discussion I need to have with the provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Welcome, Minister, to the committee.

I hope we have an opportunity to discuss the crime rate with you in the coming days, in particular the violent crime rate. We get the distinct impression on listening to you speak that you are disconnected from the statistics that we have had an opportunity to review here in committee.

All crime indicators, particularly violent crime indicators, are on the decline. However, that's not what I wanted to talk to you about.

The draft legislation that you are planning to introduce has raised some concerns, particularly the detention provisions for sentences of less than two years. The cost of this detention will have to be assumed by the provinces. Perhaps I may have misinterpreted various budget items, but frankly, I got the impression that the provinces would not be receiving any additional funding, if they eventually had to take up the slack, further to changes to sentencing provisions. When the committee met with departmental officials to discuss Bills C-9 and C-10, we were told that one third of people may no longer be eligible for a conditional sentence.

Have you planned to give the provinces any kind of financial break?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you for the question.

I want to correct this impression that is being advanced that somehow crime rates are dropping. I think we have to put that into some kind of perspective.

I can deal specifically with gun crime rates that are substantially up in certain areas. If we put it into context and look at generations, for example, what has happened to crime rates in Canada from 1970 to 2004, a generation or more? The overall crime rate in that time period has increased 57%, and violent crime rates have increased 100%. Those are Stats Canada figures.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Since when?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

This is right out of Stats Canada. Homicide rates in the last few years have increased, and robbery rates have increased 60% from 1970 to 2004. The idea that crime rates have somehow gone down is simply incorrect.

If you go to Stats Canada and simply look at them, in effect—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Could you give your figures to the clerk? All of the indicators that we have do not point to that conclusion. We will be discussing Bills C-9 and C-10 with you. I believe the figures that you're quoting are a decade old and that you're reading something into them that isn't there.

I have another question for you concerning human rights. Therefore, I'd appreciate a quick answer from you to my question about available funding for the provinces. Try not to be overly ideological, please.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I simply want to correct for the record the impression that the crime rates are going down, especially in areas like Toronto, where handgun crimes and robberies are now moving up dramatically. So if you want to put things on the record, I can dispute that simply by referring to Statistics Canada.

When we look at crime statistics, I would suggest that the member should not look at simply a five-year period or a ten-year period. Look at a generation and see what has happened in our cities, especially with gun crime.

I will in fact table these statistics.

Now, in respect of the cost of the justice platform, my colleague Minister Flaherty has already indicated in our budget that we are going to operate under a basic principle of fiscal responsibility. My officials are working very closely with the ministries of finance and public safety to anticipate any cost related to our platform commitment. Our 2006 budget-committed funds respond to our anticipated cost for Corrections Canada, for RCMP officers, and to provide money for victims of crime. We believe these measures are worthwhile in reducing the crime cost and associated cost to Canadians.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Yesterday on the train, I read the report of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. I was somewhat taken aback to see that the Commission's budget is being cut back. I have two questions for you regarding this decision.

The Commission has made major strides in its efforts to clear up its backlog of cases. Forty-four per cent of cases have been settled. Do you intend to draw inspiration from Justice La Forest's report tabled several years ago, with a view to including social condition in the Canadian Human Rights Act? It's time to dust the cobwebs off this act. Do you want to go down in history as the minister who accomplished this feat? That's my first question.

Secondly, can you tell me why the budget of the Canadian Human Rights Commission is being cut back?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

On the specific issue with respect to the commission, I will take a look at the recommendations of Justice La Forest in his report. I can indicate that it is not on our priority list, but I'm willing to look forward to having any discussion on that particular issue.

Thank you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I hope to convince you to make a historical contribution by dusting the cobwebs off this legislation. We both are passionate about human rights.

Could you possibly provide the committee with a document detailing specifically how the government intends to allocate the $20 million earmarked for communities to help them fight youth crime? This appears to be a welcomed initiative, but I would like more information about how the funds will be divided among the provinces and about what this initiative means for Quebec and for the Quebec model. It's a positive initiative and it comes at an opportune moment.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I appreciate the fact that Quebec has worked very hard in this area. In fact, I had the opportunity to meet with the Minister of Justice for Quebec on Friday. We had a very good discussion, and I think we had a frank discussion in terms of what we would both like to see happen in our justice system. It was an introductory meeting, but no firm commitments were made by anyone in respect of any programming.

On the $20 million, I want to work together with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that the money is spent wisely.

I recall from the days when I was a provincial minister of justice the importance of alternative sentencing, including youth initiatives--for example, youth justice committees, on which Manitoba was a leader in terms of finding alternative ways to deal with youth who weren't serious criminals but did need the opportunity and the help to stay out of crime. So I'm very favourable to those kinds of committees. In fact, under our provincial government, when I was the attorney general, we were the first to introduce actual funding of any substantial amount to help those youth justice committees. I don't know what the funding of that is at this time, but I thought it was an important aspect to look at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Comartin of the NDP.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here. Let me start by challenging you on your statistics. I'm looking at figures taken from a briefing from the Canada Firearms Centre showing robberies using firearms have decreased by 50% since 1974. On the murder rate, the use of firearms in 1975 was 1.26 per 100,000 population. In 2003 it was .51. I'm sure you'll tell me it went up slightly in 2004 and 2005, and you would be correct in that, but it was in the range of a 2% increase.

The actual number of homicides in 1975 as a result of firearms were 292. Obviously, on a population basis it's substantially smaller than in 2003, when there were 161 homicides.

Mr. Minister, those are by way of comments to repudiate your comments about the increase of violence in our society. But let me ask you some questions.

First of all, with regard to the $20 million for programming, that $20 million is actually for two years, is it not? Is it $10 million a year?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, it is.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

As to the programming, has any of that been developed at this point?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, it has not, not that I'm aware of.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is it realistic to expect that the first $10 million will be spent in this budget period?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I haven't had those discussions yet with my counterparts. I'm not ruling out the possibility that some of that may well be spent, but some of it may not be spent. But we are committed to implementing those, in the same way that the effects of the legislation we are bringing forward may not take effect for one or two or three years.