Evidence of meeting #17 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was journalists.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joshua Hawkes  As an Individual
Karen Markham  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Josée Desjardins  General Counsel and Director, National Security Group, Department of Justice
Jill Wry  Director of Law, Military Justice, Policy and Research, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Department of National Defence

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes, I do, and I can give you an answer for each example you gave. I'll start with the final example, because it's the one I remember best. Quorum is not written by journalists, it does not gather information. Conrad Black is not a journalist either, unless, at some point in time, he found out the identity of the source of one of his journalists. Only in such circumstances would he be considered a journalist. The Yellow Pages are not written by journalists.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Ménard, the Yellow Pages gather, produce, and publish information. They do it all the time, the great big yellow book, every year.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes, that's true, but the nature of the information gathered in the Yellow Pages is such that they will never be seen as having a confidential source of information for the purposes of an investigation which may seek to redress wrongdoing.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No. A secret source is not a criterion in your definition. The only criterion is that they gather, collate, or publish information in any media. That is your definition, and that big book is a collection of information.

You may not think it's relevant to what you think of as journalism, but in the definition you have.... I even suggest Conrad Black and Don Cherry. If Don Cherry seeks to provide, on a television program, hockey statistics about how many goals, and he does this regularly, it seems to me that within your definition in electronic media he is a journalist because he gathers information and makes it known.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Monsieur Ménard, I know you may want to respond to Mr. Lee--quickly, if you would, and then Mr. Petit.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I think they deal with the information gathered by others.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Good afternoon, Mr. Ménard. I'm very glad that you can explain this bill to us today. What I'm thinking, is that the courts will have to deal with this kind of bill in the future. Here is what I am wondering. You were Minister of Justice in Quebec, you were also a criminal lawyer. Imagine you're in government, you know the orders in council 115 and 116 of Quebec dealing with the protection of confidential employees. There are confidential employees in every government.

Imagine that one of your employees decides to speak to a journalist who then goes and publishes the information. He's doing indirectly what he does not have the right to do directly. Legislation stipulates that such an individual cannot speak of what he has seen or what is going on in his department. The employee speaks to the journalist, who then repeats what he has learned and publishes it. That would pose a problem because in your bill, there is reverse onus.

The last time we had a discussion on the reverse onus, it was not easy. I'd like you to explain how we're going to manage that because when you reverse the burden of proof, you are placing this entire burden on the shoulders of another person. And that is what is happening here. I'd like to know if your bill ends up protecting, indirectly, what may not be protected directly. There are confidential employees here in Ottawa, in Quebec, and in your department. Now for argument's sake, let's say they speak to a journalist and that what is said ends up in the papers. Then what do you do, since you've shifted the burden of proof?

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

No, such an employee is not protected because I don't think he's acting in the public interest. When the judge weighs up the public interest together with the principle of freedom of information, this kind of individual certainly won't be protected. And I certainly don't want to protect this kind of individual. Rather, I'm talking about, for example, one of the most recent and spectacular cases that we've ever seen, and that is the two Enron accountants who confided in journalists and explained the massive fraud that was under way. Their identity could not be revealed until the Enron people were charged and the accountants were given assurances as to their safety.They are the kind of individuals that we seek to protect. There will be many such individuals in our modern-day society, in relation to the environment, for example. Individuals will testify as to company practices; companies that deliberately come up with tricks to get around environmental legislation. Individuals will go to a journalist and the journalist will investigate. Then the journalist will blow the whistle on the companies once information has been gathered. But I do not think that it is in the public interest to simply report an illegal act to a journalist and expect that he will be entirely responsible for making it public. I don't think the judge would think so either.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Petit.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

How much time do I have left?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

One question.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Ménard, you were previously a criminal lawyer and you represented individuals who had criminal charges laid against them. Now imagine that your secretary, who is bound by confidentiality as you are because you're a lawyer, decides to talk to a journalist. And the journalist gives an account of your secretary's remarks in the newspaper. Your bill provides for a shift in the burden of proof. The information provided may serve to convict somebody else, and not necessarily one of your clients. Given the reverse onus, how is it that you intend to protect your client-attorney privilege and that of your employee? How can this be maintained if a journalist can publish such information?

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I should point out right away, Mr. Petit, that we've been talking about protecting journalistic sources for almost 30 years and that that kind of situation has never occurred. To begin with, the secretary would be breaking the law. Furthermore, I think that the last amendment I brought forward should reassure you in that regard.

Once again, my bill's purpose, and its practical effect, is to encourage all judges to make the kind of reasoned arguments they've made in the past. This is very important for the protection of individuals who talk to the media but don't have the means the National Post, La Presse, and Radio-Canada have, or don't want to use them, like Le Journal de Montréal, which rarely...

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

Mr. Réal Ménard, you have an opportunity for one question.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Ménard, I think there is something abusive in making a claim, like my friend the parliamentary secretary just did, that if your bill were to be adopted, it would compromise the smooth running of certain investigations that are important from a national security standpoint, and, I would like once and for all, to go over this with you. I would like you to explain that that would not be possible, upon even a superficial reading your bill, because of the balance that the judge must take into account. I would like you to give us guarantees that it was not at all your intention to hamper investigations involving national security.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

What I want to protect is journalistic activity which is always carried out in the public interest. In a fairly short document, scarcely more than two pages, three provisions set out the balance judges must strike between the principles at stake: the government's interest, on the one hand, and on the other hand, the protection of sources and journalistic activity, which is inevitable in a democratic society. And that is the spirit of clause 39.1(7). In order to do a good job at keeping us well informed, journalists need people to trust them. And yet, people will trust them less if they know they are becoming adjuncts of the police. Journalists who are but adjuncts of the police are characteristic of dictatorial or totalitarian regimes. In the bill, reference is made to a balance between the values in clause 39.1(5)(b), clause 39.1(7) and clause 39.1(8)(b).

I remain convinced that such legislation would be highly useful, and very much appreciated not only by the journalistic community but also...

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Mr. Moore, we have time for one question.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, further to Mr. Réal Ménard's question, to suggest that there wouldn't be an impact, to me, is to suggest that the bill does nothing. We wouldn't all be sitting here if this bill didn't do something. I would argue that it may not have been your intent, but this could have an impact on those types of investigations.

The bill establishes for journalists a new class privilege that does not exist now. The presumption now is that journalists are subject to the same treatment as all other Canadians, and there's a legal presumption that relevant evidence should be presented to the courts. That's the presumption, and I mentioned that in an earlier question. The assertion of journalistic privilege is an exception to that rule.

Whether it's the intention or not, your bill would supercede all other federal acts—that's stated explicitly in the bill—including Criminal Code provisions, as well as acts that could impact on terrorism and national security, as I mentioned. It would extend to journalists a privilege that is not accorded to any other Canadian and in fact throw out the balance that the courts as recently as this week have upheld, which says that there is an appropriate balance, that journalists can exert journalistic privilege but that has to be dealt with on and established on a case-by-case basis.

What we have with your bill is an overly broad definition of journalist that extends this privilege to journalists above and beyond all Canadians and really fundamentally shifts the balance that has been established. Again, I would put to you the question: is it not true that if this bill were to pass, there would be some cases that could proceed now that will not be able to proceed because of a lack of relevant evidence?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Ménard.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

It was not my intention to create a separate class of citizens, but rather to protect an activity, to protect the sources, and not the journalists themselves. These individuals would not confide in journalists and tell them their sources if they didn't have the guarantee that the information would remain confidential, and it's the confidential sources I sought to protect. Now, even if you don't like the fact that citizens are in a class of their own, the fact remains that these are the only kinds of witnesses who enjoy constitutional protection. Under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, everybody enjoys the fundamental freedoms of: freedom of thought, of belief, of opinion, and of expression. In addition to this, there is the freedom of the press and that of other means of communication.

Furthermore, if you pay close attention to justices La Forest and Cory's opinions in the RAD, they provide a very clear explanation of what I said earlier and that is that journalists must not be perceived to be adjuncts of the state. When they collect information and present it, what they disseminate must not be used by the police, unless the police have good reason to make use of it. The notion of good reason is broadly explained in my bill and will be interpreted based on existing case law.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Ménard and Mr. Moore.

That ends the first hour of discussion on Mr. Ménard's private member's bill.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

And the government will support the bill.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I will then call forward the additional witnesses.

Mr. Ménard, please, would you step down.

Mr. Hawkes, Karen Markham, Josée Desjardins, and Lieutenant Colonel Jill Wry.

We'll suspend for one minute.

4:34 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I call the justice committee to order.

For the testimony from the witnesses, I will take them as they appear in order on the agenda. First, Mr. Joshua Hawkes.

Mr. Hawkes, you are a prosecutor with the crown in the province of Alberta, specifically Calgary. Is that correct?

March 5th, 2008 / 4:35 p.m.

Joshua Hawkes As an Individual

That's correct, Mr. Chairman.