Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was auto.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Yakabuski  President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada
Ken Haywood  Founder, Auto Theft Canada
Richard Dubin  Vice-President, Investigations, Insurance Bureau of Canada

12:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

The reality is it's very clear that to the degree that loss costs go down, insurance premiums go down. The way most private insurance companies rate auto insurance in this country is by taking into account the cost related to the loss of a particular vehicle model.

A lot of car manufacturers stepped up to the plate and began installing these immobilizers before they became mandatory, at the urging of the Insurance Bureau of Canada, among others. So people who are owners of those vehicles have already been benefiting from the fact that these vehicles are stolen less often and therefore the insurance premiums associated with them are lower as well.

The other thing you have to remember is if you look at the portrait of auto theft in Canada, unfortunately it's not an equal opportunity crime. Some of the poorest areas of Canada also have the highest auto theft records. Certain cities have a much higher auto theft record than others, so there's no doubt that there are social and economic implications beyond only the cost of insurance. But I want to assure you that to the degree that these bring down the cost of insurance for people, those savings are going to be passed on to drivers.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

I understand that the savings would be passed on. I was wondering if there was some sort of economic calculation. I know there was a model that looked at this particular bill and the impact it would have on the consumer, because you mentioned that equation earlier on in your remarks.

The second question I have is with respect to jurisdictions involved. You mentioned Premier Doer's leadership on this file. Are there any other jurisdictions in Canada that have demonstrated similar leadership, that have come to Ottawa to lobby us at the federal level or have done some work at the provincial level?

12:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

We're aware of the fact that the provincial and federal attorneys general met a few weeks ago, actually, and we know this topic was on their agenda. I was not privy to those discussions exactly, but I understand there was a good vigorous discussion and that a number of provincial attorneys general expressed support for tougher legislation in Canada to deal with auto theft. It did not come only from Manitoba; a number of other provinces made that point as well.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Quickly.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

A quick question, Mr. Haywood.

You mentioned that auto theft is an addiction and you need these long-term sentences to deal with its treatment. Could you elaborate on what that treatment would entail, or what you meant by that comment?

12:20 p.m.

Founder, Auto Theft Canada

Ken Haywood

Tim Shields says that the highs they get from stealing the cars is equal to what they get from drugs. He feels that if they were put into jail for a period of time, that would reduce their addiction or help to control their addiction.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Bains. Good questions.

Mr. Ménard.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

I have one question and one comment. First, please understand that I share your concern about how serious the problem of auto theft is. I know that it is very serious in Manitoba, but it is a phenomenon that is also widespread in all our communities. You are right to describe it as troubling.

As parliamentarians, we have a responsibility to address it. But I must tell you that we see a difficulty. I am open to the idea of establishing auto theft as a specific class of offences. I am well aware that in some communities, the car is essential, given that ways of getting around and public transportation are difficult when you are a worker living in outlying areas. I have no difficulty understanding that cars are essential.

However, I do not know if we have to solve this problem with mandatory minimum sentences. This committee has very often had to grapple with the idea of mandatory minimum sentences as a matter of criminal law. A number of good studies show that, in a legal system, in a Criminal Code, mandatory minimum sentences are not a very significant factor. The significant factors are the police on the streets, the number of charges laid and the effective nature of the investigations.

Mr. Yakabuski, when you say a minimum sentence happens on the first offence, I...

12:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

Sir, it is on the third offence.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Not at all! The bill as presently worded is confusing then, because in the version I have here—perhaps there has been an amendment I am not aware of—the proposed sub-paragraph 334.1(1)(a)(i) reads as follows:

(a) whether the offence is prosecuted by indictment or punishable on summary conviction [...] (i) for a first offence, to a fine of not less than one thousand dollars or to imprisonment for a term of not less than three months, or to both.

Do you interpret that as a mandatory minimum sentence? I certainly do. Perhaps our counsel could correct me if I am wrong.

I want automobile theft to be given special significance. I share your feeling. I want us to have this exchange so that we can find the best way to get there. I would also like you to explain something in more detail. On page 3 of your brief, you make specific mention of one phenomenon:

Organized crime steals vehicles and chops them up to sell parts of specious quality.

I would like you to talk to us about that part of your brief.

12:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Excuse me, Mr. Yakabuski. On Mr. Ménard's point, as far as the bill is concerned, and as it's shaped here and was presented by Mr. Scheer, there are three particular points of mandatory minimums. The third is considered to be indictable, with a fine of not less than $10,000 and imprisonment for a term of not less than two years. I just note that as a reference.

12:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

I was referring to the character of its being an indictable offence, Mr. Chairman, which won't come until a third offence has been committed. I think that is important to understand.

Let me come back to the matter the member raised. You are completely right to say that we must work on several levels at the same time. Changing the Criminal Code is not going to solve the problem because there are socio-economic aspects that will require a lot of work.

You are right: for the support to really work, that is, the increased penalties that this bill provides for the first time in Canada, there must be more police and more prosecutors. Everything must work together. We are completely in favour of that.

But we must mention one current problem, though there are others: it is very difficult to set a reasonable fine for an offence that is becoming more and more violent. So I think...

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

The people are not in jail.

So, as a Canadian insurer, your concern has to do with the fact that people pay fines but are not sent to jail.

Is that your concern?

12:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

Absolutely.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

How many cars were stolen in Canada last year? How big a problem are we talking about? If I wanted to convince my caucus to support that, what figures would I use?

12:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

Last year, 159,000 vehicles were stolen in Canada.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

And the year before?

12:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

About the same number.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

OK, 159,000 cars. they were not all Volvos, were they?

12:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

They were not all Volvos, but I imagine a number of them were.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Could you explain...

12:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

Certainly. This is what is very...

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

..."chopped up" and all that.

12:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

Mark Yakabuski

Organized crime is behind all the auto theft in Canada. That means that criminals get young people stealing cars. What happens then? The vehicle is taken to a garage somewhere, it is cut into pieces in order to sell parts illegally to other garages, then that vehicle's identification is substituted for another vehicle somewhere else in the country. The purchaser of that vehicle is completely unaware of what has happened.

In addition, more than 30,000 vehicles are shipped out of Canada with virtual impunity through the ports of Montreal, Toronto, Halifax and Vancouver because organized crime is heavily involved in all those activities.