Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was car.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Centre for Criminology, Oxford University, As an Individual
Exactly, and I'm sure that the intention behind this legislation is to go for the person who steals a car, three months later steals another car, and three months later steals another car. That's the guy they're after.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
As a point of clarification, Mr. Roberts, on that particular section, the question was directly put to Mr. Scheer. His intent was that if an individual went on a car-stealing spree one night, each offence would be considered separate. As an individual, an additional two.... It would be a separate offence.
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Centre for Criminology, Oxford University, As an Individual
With respect to restraint, restraint is one of the codified principles that came in 1996 in Bill C-41. The principle effectively states that you don't impose a term of custody unless no other sanction is appropriate. It's effectively Parliament's direction to courts to use custody as the sanction of last resort. With respect to this particular context, the argument would be that you wouldn't put somebody in prison for stealing a car if some other sanction could do the job effectively.
The problem with a minimum penalty in general is that it prejudges, and some of the offenders who steal a car may not be the kind of people for whom prison is an absolute necessity. That's how it violates restraint.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Well, not only is it not an absolute necessity, but sometimes it doesn't work; it makes them worse, and there are other things that could stop them from stealing cars.
Mr. Jillett, I was very interested in your comment that there was some evidence of a relationship between car theft and terrorism funding. Could you outline that a bit?
12:20 p.m.
Investigator, Provincial Auto Theft Team, North American Export Committee
This was back in the 1980s and 1990s, during the investigation of Hezbollah in Quebec and Ontario. They were looking at it and had evidence at that point in time that suggested stolen vehicles were being used to fund Hezbollah, both here in Canada and over in Lebanon. That was documented back in the late 1980s and early 1990s and produced in one of their national reports. That's accessible on the Internet.
Also, in various meetings I had throughout Europe in dealing with the Interpol offices, a lot of information was surfacing on financing terrorism with stolen vehicles, especially through European cases. Europe has 3.3 million vehicles on their stolen-vehicle database, so they're seeing a lot more of that activity than we do.
I mentioned Project Globe a little while ago. We were looking at hundreds of vehicles that were travelling off to the Middle East. We've never before seen this number of vehicles going over there. A lot of intelligence agencies have been extremely interested in that information. We've never seen that before, and they're basing this on a lot of the funding and stuff that has been sewn up in bank accounts and frozen; these are very liquid assets for them to travel back and forth.
I was contacted by one of the assistant U.S. attorneys at Washington. He was very interested in what we were seeing in West Africa. He was seeing similar things happening through the United States. A lot of of goods were travelling to western Africa and actually finding their way up into Morocco and actually crossing over into Spain and heading back into Europe. There's a lot of activity in traffic of vehicles.
The traffic aspect of stolen vehicles is astronomical, especially internationally. When you put it all together into a global perspective, Canada is only a part of this, but this is what we're here to represent--to try to prevent more cars from going away.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
I'm going to ask two brief questions, Mr. Chair.
I'm always pleased to see you, Mr. Roberts. We had stopped expecting you, but, in the end, you're here, and that's good news.
The Bloc Québécois is in favour of the idea of there being a separate offence in the Criminal Code for motor vehicle theft. It's apparent from the analysis that stealing a motor vehicle is not the same thing as stealing a fur coat, a piece of jewellery or a television set. It isn't the same thing in the life of a citizen.
What makes us reluctant are the mandatory minimum sentences. We've of course looked at the studies done by Mr. Roberts and others on minimum sentences for crimes committed with firearms, and we believe that should also be applied more broadly.
Shouldn't we be preparing to pass the bill with amendments instead? We can create a separate regime of offences for motor vehicle theft, but preserve judicial discretion and increase the maximum sentence. We can go up to a maximum fine of $10,000. If a judge has before him a youth who has reoffended for a third time, he will never think of imposing a $300 fine on him. I believe we have to trust the judiciary somewhat.
That will be the gist of the amendment that we introduce in our second item of business, the clause-by-clause consideration. I'd like to know how all of your view that amendment.
12:25 p.m.
Professor, Centre for Criminology, Oxford University, As an Individual
On the issue of the separate offence, Mr. Moore asked if there were arguments for it. There is another argument for it, and that is a kind of truth in sentencing. That this guy has been convicted of theft doesn't tell you anything. It could be an expensive TV. If he has stolen a car, it of course has implications for the family's mobility and so on and so forth, so it's a different kind of thing. So that's an argument for having the separate offence.
On your point about distinguishing, it's very important. That's critical, because I could say to you that I have a car thief outside, so what should he get? Your first question would be whether he's a professional or an 18-year-old guy who has just grabbed his neighbour's car. The legislation in its present form doesn't permit you to make that distinction, so one way forward could be to place that distinction in statutory form, and you could use the maximum penalty structure to aid it.
12:25 p.m.
Chairman, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
As far as the Canadian Automobile Dealers are concerned, the people who are stealing our vehicles are hardened criminals, organized criminals. They're very skilled professionals. This is probably one aspect of the businesses they're involved with, the illegal activities.
We don't see the joyriders. They're really not much of a factor. The vehicles that are stolen are specifically targeted. Things are well organized, well executed, and the vehicles are on a boat or on a truck, gone, and we just don't see them again.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Chair, when we say that the average age of thieves in Saskatchewan and British Columbia is 14, we're not talking about organized crime, but about juvenile delinquency. Let's get this straight: it may be organized crime in certain provinces, but when we say the average age is 14, in Saskatchewan and British Columbia, we're not talking about organized crime. Something's wrong in the statistics.
12:25 p.m.
Chairman, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
I'll speculate, after having had discussions with people about the event I mentioned. It happened at our dealership. We had four $60,000 pickup trucks stolen in one morning, on a Sunday morning. That would go down something like this.
Somebody has obviously organized this. They get some kids and say to the kids that they're going to pay them $500 to drive that car three blocks over here and drive it up the back of a truck. Somebody is then going to take that truck, drive it to Montreal, and get it onto a transport. It happens very quickly.
So this kid who is paid $500 or $1,000—I think that's the amount Mr. Mills referred to—is probably that 16-, 17-, or 18-year-old kid who's using the money for drugs or other things, but he is looped into this network. It's not the head guy of the organized crime who's getting in that car, driving it onto the truck, and then driving the truck to Montreal. They're manipulating people in the system. The organization of it is profound.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I'm sorry, but our time is up, Mr. Ménard. I know there was probably some other comment, but unfortunately we can't continue.
I would like to thank the panellists for their presentations. It has been a very interesting discussion, I dare say. I have a number of questions to ask yet myself, but we do not have the time, so I would like to thank you all for your presence here.
Mr. Williams.
12:30 p.m.
Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
Mr. Chair, I just have one note of thanks for the record. I want to thank the clerk's office for being so accommodating for the witnesses on short notice, and for being so easy to deal with.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you for your comments.
I would recess for just a few seconds.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I would like to call the committee back to order, and I request that the members take their seats.
Our witnesses at present are Inspector Jim Poole , an inspector with the Winnipeg Police Service; and Mr. Barry Ward, the executive director of the National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft. Welcome to our committee.
I would call on you to begin, please, Inspector Poole.
12:35 p.m.
Inspector Jim Poole Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
Thank you, and good afternoon.
I want to thank you all for this opportunity to present to you today on this very significant bill introduced by Mr. Scheer some time ago. I have the unfortunate distinction of presenting to you on behalf of Winnipeg, the stolen auto capital of Canada.
The stolen auto situation in Winnipeg is one for which, by and large, the youth are responsible. This is coupled with excessive numbers over the years, with 2004 being our worst. At that point in time, a strategy was put together, encompassing the Winnipeg Police Service, Manitoba Corrections, and Probation Services. This resulted in the Winnipeg auto theft suppression strategy, whereby youth are categorized in levels, depending on their at-risk behaviour and their likeliness to be repeat offenders. It uses levels one through four, with level four being the worst. Currently, Winnipeg has 104 level four offenders and 42 level three offenders. This is what our stolen auto unit, comprised of 15 police officers, primarily targets.
The vehicle theft problem in Winnipeg is not associated with organized crime specifically, as I know you've been—
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Inspector, I wonder if you could just slow down a bit for the interpreters. It's not to say that your information isn't good. We just want to make sure we catch it all.
12:40 p.m.
Inspector, Winnipeg Police Service
Very good. Sorry.
In Winnipeg, youth and those in early adulthood are the ones stealing the cars. They're stealing these cars for excitement and/or to utilize them as a means to an end, that being other criminal behaviour, be it participation in break-and-enters, robberies, or other significant offences.
When I related that the auto theft problem isn't primarily associated with organized crime, that was because we have approximately a 95% recovery rate for our stolen vehicles. Most of these are recovered a short time later, within a few days of being stolen.
This problem is not unique to Winnipeg. It has been and continues to be a problem in many western centres, Regina and Edmonton in particular. It's important to note that no major centre is immune to this type of problem. It's just a matter of which kids start talking to other kids. We're seeing them from the age of 11 right on up through 17, 18, and 19 years old. The arrest rates in Winnipeg so far this year, from January to November, saw 744 people charged. Of those, 424, or 57%, were youths, and 320, or 43%, were adults. Of note, 50% of the level four offenders that we are monitoring—these 104 youths—have self-admitted gang involvement within the city of Winnipeg.
First and foremost in our situation, this is a public safety issue. The crime associated with it, that being the theft of a motor vehicle, certainly deserves a separate Criminal Code section to identify it as such. The significance of it being able to be identified as an indictable offence is due to the often violent crimes or incidents that are associated with it, which I'll illustrate here.
Most offenders flee from the police when initially detected. Police do have the option to pursue, of course, but this is one option that isn't followed in most cases, because of the ultimate risk to public safety when these kids, being 11 years old or of similar ages, are pushed with their inexperience at operating a vehicle such as a Ford F-350 pickup truck or some similar vehicle. This happens at all times of the day. This isn't something that occurs late at night while our families or our friends are asleep.
I have a couple of anecdotes here, just within the last week alone in Winnipeg.
On a Winnipeg afternoon at a shopping mall, a stolen vehicle arrived and its occupants attempted to steal a second vehicle. This was in the summer of this year in Winnipeg. The group was confronted by police and fled. The manner of driving was noted by an aerial surveillance unit, with no police pursuing. The command was given not to pursue these kids. They continued on a rampage through certain areas of the city and into another completely different sector, over about 15 minutes. Ultimately, we were able to call other police units into the area once they fled from the vehicle, and they were arrested. They were observed travelling at a high rate of speed through a number of these areas, in a very reckless manner.
Just last Wednesday, a break-and-enter was in progress in the city at 8:30 in the morning, in rush hour traffic. A vehicle was spotted leaving the break-and-enter and the description was broadcast, along with the licence plate. It was in fact a stolen vehicle. Within moments, responding police arrived and spotted the vehicle, and a pursuit began at that time. It was aborted by the officers pursuing due to the fact that it was snowing at the time. The vehicle fled through two red lights within approximately 30 seconds, fishtailing through traffic.
The day before, two significant incidents occurred in Winnipeg. A robbery suspect in a stolen vehicle was confronted by police. He rammed the police cruisers and shots were fired by police. That was at 2:30 in the afternoon. Later that night, at 10:30 p.m., the stolen vehicle was located by our stolen auto unit. We set up on it, an occupant came back to it, and police attended to the vehicle, at which time they were immediately rammed by this vehicle. It was an F-350 Ford pickup, and again shots were fired.
This illustrates the two extreme examples where officers' lives were put in jeopardy at the time. Officers obviously have great concern in the use of their weapon, and it's a deadly force encounter when they feel that they have to use it.
To give some other case studies from Winnipeg, in this last year alone, there was a jogger struck while jogging on one of Winnipeg's residential streets, on purpose. A number of arrests were made in that case, but ultimately the main accused was released and acquitted.
A young offender who is a bit of a ring leader—this is a significant case study from 2004—and who was initially arrested at the age of 12 years has become a level four offender, and back in March of 2006 was leading another group of youth: three level four and one level three offender. Over the course of 12 days prior to their arrest as a group, 39 thefts of Chevy Avalanches and Trail Blazers were noted, in which he was teaching these kids how to defeat the factory-installed immobilizers. In the 12 days post-arrest, only four vehicles of that type were noted to be stolen.
This male ultimately was arrested 11 different times from July 2004 until a tragic incident occurred on July 24 of this year, when this youth was wanted on a warrant. A warrant was issued for several breaches of his conditions of release on July 20. On July 24, police encountered him, but did not pursue. Ultimately, he struck a cyclist on a Winnipeg street and killed him. Mr. James Duane is the deceased.
Here are a couple of other significant incidents. A two-vehicle motor vehicle collision took the life of a mother, I believe of two, this summer while she was on her way to work; she was struck by an adult offender in a stolen vehicle.
We've had youth in another circumstance steal the vehicle and then, for lack of a better term, launch it across Main Street in Winnipeg at mid-afternoon on a Sunday, I believe it was, unattended but with a brick on the gas pedal. This is just what they do and what we've seen in Winnipeg itself.
Within moments of that occurring, our stolen auto members were in the area. They followed some suspects they felt were responsible and were rammed in a surveillance car by another group of youths in a second stolen vehicle—all part of the same group that had launched the van across the street.
This just illustrates, I hope, the significance and the escalating violence we're seeing associated with these types of crimes. Thus far in 2007, we've seen at least 2,000 fewer stolen vehicles than last year, so we're down about 27% from 2006. Those 2,000 vehicles are associated with an approximate cost in repairs alone to the Manitoba Public Insurance Agency of $3,600 per vehicle; that adds up to approximately $7.2 million.
These figures are strictly numbers associated with repairs of the vehicles and in no way account for the fact that there are 2,000 fewer opportunities for auto thieves to cause carnage on the streets of Winnipeg. The human factor has to be considered when focusing on this crime. Lives can be changed, altered, or ended in a split second as a result of those who take part in this form of criminal activity.
These people must be held accountable. This is no longer just a property crime.
The acceptance of this bill is important to law enforcement, and more importantly to public safety. It's imperative that consideration be given to having mandatory minimum sentences transcend the boundaries of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. This is crucial. If not, the majority of offenders will be overlooked in our circumstances, and these are the offenders causing the greatest risk to public safety.
Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Barry Ward Executive Director, National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, on behalf of our stakeholders and committee members of the National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft, I wish to express our appreciation to you for providing us the opportunity to have some input regarding this significant bill being proposed by a member of Parliament, Andrew Scheer.
The National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft was formed as a result of Rick McDonald's death. He was a constable in Sudbury, Ontario, who was in the process of trying to arrest an individual he'd already arrested six months earlier. He was hit by a Dodge Caravan at 160 kilometres an hour, resulting in his death. His sister took the lead and formed the National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft, and as a result, we're here.
First and foremost, auto theft to us is a big public safety issue in our community, and your realizing that maintaining the status quo is not acceptable is very encouraging to us.
We heard the OPP officer speak about Constable Plunkett, who was killed this summer. Again, we should point out that the offender involved in that one was a chronic repeat offender, and again a youth.
Auto theft is a complex social issue. It's not limited to one category of offender or one set of circumstances. Reducing auto theft in a substantial manner requires the implementation of a multifaceted approach, including the passing of Mr. Scheer's bill. At one end, the focus should be on reducing the situational opportunities--in other words, immobilization of vehicles, which we've done through Transport Canada--and at the other, it should be imposing the appropriate punitive measures, as prescribed in Mr. Scheer's bill. In between are a number of different approaches, such as education, training, enforcement, and sentencing measures that can be used to address the public safety issues.
Five years ago this whole issue of auto theft became very significant. As a result, ministers met at the federal-provincial-territorial first ministers meeting in Moncton, New Brunswick, to address the issue of opportunistic auto theft. A presentation was delivered by Minister Mackintosh from Manitoba and a representative of our committee. Following the presentation there was a proposed resolution for immobilization of vehicles, which was presented to the Minister of Transportation, Minister Collenette. Delegates at the federal-provincial-territorial meeting passed a strongly worded resolution calling for a federal coordinated strategy to address the issue of preventing auto theft through a national approach of regulating immobilizers. This was one of the first steps of looking at a national initiative.
Following the passing of the federal-provincial-territorial ministers' resolution, members and stakeholders of the national committee passed a resolution in June 2002, requesting that the automobile manufacturers work with Transport Canada to equip all new vehicles sold in Canada with immobilizers. This resolution encouraged Transport Canada to adopt a standard established in 1998, a standard established by the Underwriters' Laboratories of Canada and the industry. The regulation that was passed was built to deal with the problems we experience here in Canada and built to remain abreast of technology and the evolution of modern-day vehicles.
The reason I bring this up is that it's been a significant issue before many bodies of government, and additional support was given from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, which represents municipal governments. At its March 2003 meeting held in Regina, the national board of directors of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities endorsed a similar resolution for vehicle immobilization. They argued that motor vehicle theft is linked to organized crime and dangerous criminal activities and that it was a serious public safety issue to the community. The resolution urged that all new motor vehicles registered in Canada after 2005 be equipped with an immobilizer. As we know, that took place in September 2007.
Over the past several years motor vehicle theft has increasingly become well organized. As we heard this morning, it has an international scope of operation, influence, and impact. Highly organized rings have created an illicit economy that controls specific aspects of motor vehicle theft in Canada, easily moving vehicles across Canada at will with little resistance, with movement of vehicles in and out of the United States and abroad. The illicit economy has provided an international marketplace for stolen vehicles, and the worldwide demand is driving down the recovery rates, as we heard, in several Canadian cities.
Organized crime often utilizes auto theft as a tool, with vehicles being used to distribute illicit drugs and vehicles often being used in many other forms of criminal activity in many parts of Canada, in some cases funding terrorist activities.
With our recent regulation of immobilization, we must ensure the appropriate penalties are there to discourage chronic repeat offenders from stealing vehicles by means of home invasions, carjackings, robberies, break and enters, and discourage them from fleeing from the police. Without meaningful penalties, we are at risk of an escalation of these types of criminal activities, with our immobilization program now in place. Mr. Scheer's proposed bill will certainly provide discouragement to many chronic repeat offenders, and certainly it will be the substance of a new section for the Criminal Code.
Let me refer to a member of Parliament, Mr. Cadman from Surrey North. He had read into Parliament proposed amendments to the Criminal Code of Canada. Mr. Cadman's bill was directed at stopping the end user market, targeting jurisdictions in Canada plagued by organized theft rings where the recruitment of youth to steal vehicles was prolific, as it provides protection for the upper echelon.
Let me also refer to Minister Michael Baker, who stated that the federal Criminal Code must be amended to make motor vehicle theft a separate indictable offence punishable by more jail time. Minister Baker stated: “In my view, car theft is not a property theft defined simply by whether the value is under or over $5,000. It is a potentially violent offence with more capacity for destruction than a single bullet fired from a firearm.”
With that, I encourage the acceptance of this bill, as it is crucial to the citizens of our communities for the protection of our neighbours and the discouragement of youth involvement in auto theft.
Thank you.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you very much, Mr. Ward.
Two months ago I had my F-250 Ford truck stolen. It was damaged on the lock side of the driver's door. A screwdriver had been jammed into the ignition and broken right off, and they had access to start it and drive away with it.
It was recovered about four hours later with a bunch of stolen property in the back of it and two known drug dealers in it, both heavily involved not in crystal meth but in one of the other known drugs. To this day, I cannot get the smell of their living in that vehicle out of the truck. It seems to be into the material.
I understand there's an additional view now held on stolen vehicles taken by people involved in drugs called a biohazard, which is evaluated by insurance companies and others. To what extent does that problem exist, to your knowledge—this biohazard evaluation?
1 p.m.
Executive Director, National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft
That's the first I've heard about it. I know there have been discussions about it in the lower mainland of British Columbia, but it's not something that's very obvious to us.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Apparently it's quite common to the insurance companies—I should have asked that question—that and the use of needles sometimes jammed down between the seats. There are all kinds of hazards for a person taking that vehicle back and being subject to some other problem, such as being poked with an infected needle.
1 p.m.
Executive Director, National Committee to Reduce Auto Theft
I'm a past investigator for public insurance in Manitoba. I spent 24 years there and I was 12 years a municipal police officer. In my latter years as an investigator, it was quite common to find needles stuck in seats, when the car thieves, particularly the chronic repeat offenders, would purposely leave needles so that the tow-truck driver, the police investigator, or whoever would sustain injury from sitting on that seat.