Justice Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No, I mean how many there are currently.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't have the provincial statistics with me; they're kept by each of the provinces.

[Paula Kingston, Senior Counsel, Youth Justice, Strategic Initiatives and Law Reform, Department of Justice]

The provision in the amendment refers only to young people with adult sentences. Currently most youth get youth sentences, and the rule is that if they're under 18, they must serve that in a youth custody facility. We're only speaking about the possibility of those who get an adult sentence and are under 18. Currently there are very, very few of those young people. To the best of our knowledge, it's either one or two a year, but it's none at the moment. It's very few.

The principle is very important--it will mean that no young person will be able to go up to an adult facility--but at the current time there are very few that it applies to.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So you're saying it's fewer than five per year in the whole of the country?

[Paula Kingston]

Yes, definitely.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Does that include youth who have not been convicted but are being held in facilities that also have adults being held in them? Just so I'm clear, would this section not apply to those people?

[Paula Kingston]

That's right. This section—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are there any at this point who are being held pre-conviction in settings that also have adults in them?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm told by territorial officials that because of the lack of resources in some cases, sometimes it's necessary to do that, but every provision is taken to make sure they're not physically together. Sometimes it's in the same facility. This is a pretrial situation.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is there any reason why this section didn't include pretrial?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's in terms of our consultations with them. The territorial AGs were very specific on that. They say it may not be possible. You may pick up an individual and to transfer somebody several hundred miles overnight may not be possible, but we made it clear--and they understand we are putting this provision in--that any individual who serves a sentence will not serve that sentence in an adult facility.

Ms. Kingston, did you want to say something?

[Paula Kingston]

In the current provisions on pretrial detention, they could only be kept separate and apart from adults, and only if a judge looks at that particular case and considers whether it would be in the young person's best interest. An example would be whether it would be in the young person's best interest to be kept in an adult facility closer to home or to the trial, or to be moved far away.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Minister, in terms of cost, has any analysis been done either by the Department of Justice or by the provincial governments that will tell us what we are expecting in terms of additional incarceration rates, both pretrial and post-conviction?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

No, we don't have any studies on that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you aware if any of the provinces have done an analysis of that kind?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm not. They're aware of what we're doing, and we've had consultations with them. They are the ones that provide the facilities, but of course there are ongoing negotiations on a regular basis with the federal government with respect to cost sharing.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In that regard, in terms of the cost sharing, have you specific requests from any of the provinces to do additional cost sharing or for additional funds from the federal government to cover the costs of this increased incarceration?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm unaware of any. They would probably go to my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Those are all the questions I have. Ms. Leslie will ask some.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Two minutes is a short time, and I have a few questions, so I'm wondering, Minister Nicholson, Ms. Latimer, and Ms. Kingston, if I could ask a few questions and ask for a written response. Is that possible? Thank you.

First, concerning the Nunn Commission, recommendations 24 and 25 are not in this bill, and I'm wondering if you can provide us with reasons as to why they're not included. Thank you.

You used the language “diminished moral blameworthiness”, and I'm wondering where that language comes from.

Next, concerning denouncing unlawful conduct, I'm wondering if you can forward to the committee the studies or reports you're relying upon to show that deterrence would work with young people.

If there is time for a verbal answer for this one, I'm wondering about sexual assault, specifically when it comes to pre-sentence detention, which is prohibited unless it's a serious offence. As you know, sexual assault covers a range of behaviours. At our office we had a young man who grabbed the breast of a girl in the bus school lineup, so it can be a pretty broad range. Will it constitute a serious offence in all cases, or is there latitude there?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You covered quite a bit of ground, Ms. Leslie, and we'll see what we can do about adding those. I'll start at the top. It looks as if the chairman is warning me already, but we'll get back to you on this.

We did take most of the Nunn Commission recommendations and we'll provide you with a written response with respect to the other two. The other two provisions we did not include are generally working well, and they weren't raised with me by other provincial attorneys general as an area we should direct our attention to.

In the end, when you're trying to put together one of these bills, you're trying to balance everybody's input. Whether we get input from the Province of Quebec or from Nova Scotia--and this is theirs--we try to balance it all. I tried to take into consideration what various provincial attorneys general were telling me about where they thought the changes should be, and this bill is a reflection of that.

With respect to those others, we'll do our very best to provide you with a response.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Norlock. You have seven minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister and department officials, for coming today. So far it's been very informative and helpful to me.

Minister, once again I'd like to thank you for attending my riding's round table on public safety and justice. During the deliberations at that meeting you would have heard from community policing committees, who are the representatives of the general populace in specific communities vis-à-vis justice and public safety matters. If you recall, some of these issues and serious concerns about the YCJA were brought up at that meeting.

I'd like to go in particular to what this bill actually does cover. Of course, the recent Speech from the Throne states that:

Our Government will also ensure the youth criminal justice system responds strongly to those few who commit serious and violent crimes, while focusing on the rehabilitation of all young offenders.

I wonder if you could explain to the committee and, more importantly as far as I'm concerned, to the folks at home who are watching this exactly what that means.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

First of all, Mr. Norlock, thank you very much for putting that crime round table together. Let me publicly thank you for your commitment to reforming the criminal justice system in this country. I very much appreciate it. Those of us here in Ottawa, and I'm sure people back home, are appreciative of your concern and your interest in this area.

I heard a number of things, and you're quite correct that across this country people are worried about a relatively small group of out-of-control, violent, many-times-repeat young offenders who are a danger not only to the public but to themselves. This bill, Sébastien's law, is a reflection of that, and many of the recommendations that I have received target those particular individuals.

I was asked about the Nunn report by Ms. Leslie. The Nunn report was concerning an individual who was being arrested, released, arrested and released on the same charge. It was auto theft, or theft of over $5,000 as it's currently known. He posed a danger to the public and to himself. The interpretation of the law wasn't responding to that very particular concern, so we have to look at that and say that for the individual who was involved in mischief or a minor offence, we understand there are many routes to take to try to help that individual get intervention, including extrajudicial measures. Yes, we're all onside with that.

However, with respect to this other group of individuals, we have to clarify the law and we have to make sure that the public is protected. By protecting the public you're protecting the individual. That came through loud and clear in the Nunn report. The individual himself would have been better off if there had been clarification within the law. That's the kind of thing I've heard across this country.

I mentioned in my opening remarks that people say the bill's too complex and that it's very difficult to read and to administer. Law enforcement agencies mentioned that to me as well. On a number of occasions as you go through this on a clause-by-clause basis, you'll see that we're trying to clarify what we want. For the most part, we're all moving in the same direction, but we want clarification. We tried to put in that balance and put it in together, and this is what you have before you. You have Sébastien's law, and I'm hoping this matter will move expeditiously through the legislative process.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for that explanation, Minister.

I'd like to go back to the meeting we had, because those are the people who give me my marching orders here vis-à-vis public safety and justice. Those are the people who actually work with all segments of society. In my previous occupation as a police officer, working with crown attorneys and defence counsel and judges, we brought in restorative justice. I think that deals with some of what we call the smaller crimes, but what seems like a smaller crime to some people isn't necessarily small in the eyes of the victim.

In this committee we heard evidence from the victims that was specific to Sébastien's law. Minister, when you've met with these victims in your capacity as Minister of Justice, are there any particular meetings you can recall that bring to mind situations that are best covered by this law?