Evidence of meeting #19 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Myles Kirvan  Deputy Minister, Department of Justice

May 27th, 2010 / noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting 19 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. For the record, today is Thursday, May 27, 2010.

Just as a note to all of you, our steering committee met yesterday. I've asked the clerk to circulate the minutes of that meeting. As today's regular meeting has been abridged due to the address of the President of Mexico, we'll set aside some time at our next meeting to review the steering committee notes. I think it's important that we spend a bit of time discussing the items we talked about at steering committee, but we definitely won't get a chance to do that today.

You have before you the agenda for today. We have with us our Minister of Justice and Attorney General for Canada, the Honourable Rob Nicholson. Minister Nicholson is here to help us with our review of the main estimates, which I believe are due to be returned to the House on May 31. Accompanying the minister is the Deputy Minister, Mr. Myles Kirvan. Welcome to both of you.

Once again, to everyone in the room, please turn off your cellphones and BlackBerrys, or set them to vibrate so that we won't have any interference. If you do get phone calls, please take them outside of the room.

Minister, you have 10 minutes to make your opening remarks. Then we'll go to questions.

Noon

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It's a pleasure, as always, to be here before the standing committee on justice and legal affairs. I'm pleased to be here with Myles Kirvan. This is the first opportunity to be before the committee with the new Deputy Minister. I'm very pleased and honoured to be with him.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Justice has the responsibility of supporting the finest justice system in the world and making it as fair, accessible, and efficient as possible. The employees of the department have helped our government fulfill its commitment to tackle crime and protect Canadians through their invaluable advice and their tremendous efforts. I greatly appreciate their support and reliability, and on behalf of the government I would like to thank them all for their hard work.

The Department of Justice plays the unique role of legal adviser to the government through developing policy and drafting and reforming laws. Its employees also interact with the justice system and its many players, including other levels of government, professional associations, and a wide range of non-governmental organizations, from the community level to the national arena.

Mr. Chairman, our government continues to move forward with its tough on crime agenda to ensure that our communities are safe places for people to live, raise their families, and do business. As stated in the recent Speech from the Throne:

The law must protect everyone, and those who commit crimes must be held to account. Canadians want a justice system that delivers justice.

Since we came to power, our government has made a strong commitment to protect families and communities everywhere in Canada. We have chosen a balanced approach. It is based on prevention, enforcement and rehabilitation. But we have to do more.

Along with further protecting all Canadians, our government is also committed to responding to the needs of victims of crime, ensuring their voices are heard and their concerns are taken seriously within the justice system.

As I mentioned in my last appearance before this committee, our government has introduced an important piece of legislation, known as Sébastien's Law, to make the protection of society a primary goal of our youth criminal justice system. It would also give Canadians greater confidence that violent and repeat young offenders will be held accountable. It would simplify the rules to keep these offenders off the streets, and would require the courts to consider publishing the name of a violent young offender in individual circumstances when necessary to protect society.

Mr. Chairman, our government has reintroduced several pieces of legislation over the past couple of months, including measures to crack down on white-collar crime and fraud and increase justice for victims. Bill C-21 will amend the Criminal Code to provide tougher sentences for the criminals responsible, specifically a two-year mandatory jail term for fraud over $1 million, with a maximum term of 14 years in prison.

Because drugs are the currency of organized crime and gangs, we have also reintroduced legislation to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. This bill would impose mandatory sentences on drug producers and traffickers, specifically targeting the criminal enterprise of gangs and other violent criminal organizations.

Having this legislation passed would better protect communities and send a very clear message: if you produce and traffic drugs, if you run a grow op or a meth lab in residential neighbourhoods, if you threaten the safety of Canada's youth, you will serve jail time. Canadians should not be asked to tolerate criminal activity that attempts to flourish at the expense of law-abiding Canadians and those vulnerable to the lure of drugs.

We also take extremely seriously the many instances of child sexual exploitation facilitated by the Internet. The creation and distribution of child pornography are appalling crimes in which children are brutally victimized over and over again. The World Wide Web provides new and easier means for offenders to make, view, and distribute child pornography. This has significantly increased not only the availability and the volume of child pornography but also the level of violence perpetrated against children.

Our government recently proposed a mandatory reporting regime across Canada that will require suppliers of Internet services to report information about Internet child pornography. This will strengthen our ability to protect our children from sexual predators and help police rescue these young victims and prosecute the criminals responsible.

Mr. Chairman, our government has also shown its concern for the families of murder victims. We are acting to end faint-hope reviews to underscore the fact that murderers must serve serious time for the most serious crime. The victims of these horrendous crimes should not be made to feel that the life of their loved one didn't count. We need to spare the families of murder victims the anguish of attending repeated early-parole eligibility hearings and having to relive their losses over and over again.

Knowing what victims of crime have faced, our government has made a long-standing commitment to respond to their needs. In 2007 we committed $52 million over four years to the departments of justice and public safety. These funds go to support a number of programs and services to help the federal government and the provinces and territories respond to a variety of needs of victims of crime. They also provide victims with the resources to attend parole hearings and to seek help if they experience crime while abroad.

In addition, we have committed more than $6.6 million over two years, including expanded programming under the federal victims strategy, the details of which I will soon be providing.

I would draw particular attention, Mr. Chairman, to the victims of crime initiative. Among other things, it helps provide crown witness coordinators in the north, where rates of victimization are high. The $5 million for this initiative expired at the end of the last fiscal year, so although these funds did not appear in the main estimates they have in fact been part of the supplementary estimates that were tabled this week.

Our government is committed to supporting victims, and we will continue to do so. I'm proud of the role my department has played in ensuring that victims of crime have a voice in Canada's justice system. The perspectives and stories of victims of crime provide invaluable insight and inspiration in our common efforts to ensure the integrity of our justice system.

Mr. Chairman, over the last year our government has continued to make progress toward the goal of protecting with all the resources at its command. In the year ahead the Department of Justice will continue to support our government's efforts as efficiently and effectively as possible, both on its own and in collaboration with other federal departments and agencies, partners from the provinces, territories, and non-governmental organizations.

To conclude, Mr. Chairman, I would like to once again express my appreciation to you and to your committee members for this opportunity.

As you know, the Department of Justice plays a leading role in meeting the needs of Canadians, women and men.

As you know, the department is instrumental in meeting the needs of Canadians. We will continue to do so. I will do my utmost to ensure that the funds that are approved in the estimates will continue to be spent wisely in the service of Canadians.

Thank you. I look forward to any questions that you might have.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, Minister.

We will go to questions. First of all, we have Ms. Mendes for seven minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us today.

I would like to start by commending one aspect of the estimates.

12:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Don't get carried away.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You don't have to confine yourself to one; just keep it going.

12:10 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Well, it's the only one I can actually find myself in support of, which is the contributions under the access to both official languages. I think the department is making a true effort in increasing that budget, and I commend you for that.

Unfortunately, I find it worrisome that all transfer payments budgeted to the youth justice fund are status quo. There's not a single cent of increase in these programs. Considering that we are undergoing a study on Bill C-4, I would like to have your comments on this. Why aren't we finding any increase in funding for youth justice programs, particularly the rehabilitation ones? We did hear from New Brunswick's Attorney General that one of their very successful programs has been cut.

I'd like your comments on this, please.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Again, the program that I think you're mentioning, of several hundred thousand... It certainly is open to the province, indeed any province. As you know, among other things, there have been continuous increases to the Canada social transfer. Certainly any province that wants to get involved with any funding for youth programs is certainly welcome to do that.

I can tell you that under the youth justice fund, money has been set aside for that. As well, we're certainly doing our part in the youth justice intensive rehabilitation, custody, and supervision program. It's not just on the funding side that we are doing that. As you know, with Sébastien's Law before Parliament right now we are taking other steps to better protect young people, better protect Canadians, sometimes better protecting young people against activities they get involved with themselves. As you know--and your colleague, Mr. Regan, knows--with respect to the Nunn report, that sometimes you get a small group of out-of-control individuals who are not only a threat to the public, yes, but they're also a threat to themselves. We're addressing that on a number of levels.

As you will know, in the estimates there's $11 million for the intensive rehabilitation, custody, and supervision program under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

So all these steps are in the right direction.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

But there's no increase; they are status quo in relation to last year. That's my question.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

They're consistent with the announcements that we have made, and the money is in the program, and--

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

And know that the provinces have been asking for a little more support on these initiatives. They are finding it difficult to continue without federal support. If Sébastien’s Law goes ahead as planned, it will increase their costs in administering the youth justice act.

How are we going to provide provinces with the support to actually do the work they need to do to not only provide rehabilitation but to prevent youth crime?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I guess I would ask them to look at programs such as the national anti-drug strategy, the guns, gangs and drugs priority, and the youth justice anti-drug strategy component.

Again, I've worked well with provincial counterparts and non-governmental organizations. We certainly want to do our part. For the most part, the administration of justice is not within the federal sphere, but we've been very supportive.

We've made sure that this money and these different programs have been laid out. We want to be as accommodating and helpful as possible. Over and above these specific initiatives, the Canada social transfer has been increasing every single year. It will increase this year.

We certainly welcome any initiatives from the provinces that want to become further involved with this. I have no criticism of them in that sense. They're obviously very involved in working with young people, as we are at the federal level.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

But we know that the social transfers are mostly for the health needs of provinces that are very--

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Again, they're the priorities of the provinces, so of course I don't get into that, but since you've raised the matter, I've said that's certainly one of the options for the provinces.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

It is one of the options. But it worries me that the budget for the youth justice services is status quo.

We see an increase, an enormous one, and I'd like you to explain this. Well, it's actually new funding for the families fund. What is this going to be about? Is this for families of victims, or...?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It covers a wide range of activities, certainly the cooperation of federal enforcement agencies with respect to family court orders in terms of support, that sort of thing. It's again modernizing the facilities and working with our provincial counterparts.

So yes, you're quite correct, supporting families and family needs across this country is a priority of the government.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

But it contrasts with the reduction in the victims of crime initiative. I mean, we go from--

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

There are no reductions, Madam Mendes. If you check the estimates, you'll see—I hope you'll pass this on to your colleague Mr. Holland, who made this point—the money is there, the $5 million that he underlined.

Again, there are two parts to this. You have the main estimates and the supplementary estimates. Every single cent is there. In addition, in the Speech from the Throne—I outlined that in my comments here—I have additional moneys for victims in this country.

If you check the two of them--I'll ask any outside independent auditor to have a look at this--the money is there. Any suggestion that the money we committed to victims is not there is completely wrong. I want to make that as clear as I possibly can.

I'm asking you, Mr. Chairman, if you want to have anyone outside looking at this.

At some point in time, I hope Mr. Holland will come forward and say, “I'm sorry, we got it wrong”, to suggest that we are giving any less money to victims of crime in this country.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Why do the main estimates in 2009-10 state $7,958,000, and this year $5,250,000? There is a difference of $2 million here. We're talking about the main estimates, not the supplementary estimates.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Well, all I'm saying to you is that...and again, I didn't invent the budgetary process in this country. It's been around for a long time. But every single cent that we have committed to victims is there. In addition, in the Speech from the Throne, we outlined an additional commitment of $6.6 million, which I mentioned in my opening comments. It's all there. I appreciate that it's spread out over the main estimates and the supplementary estimates, but it is all there.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We're going to move on to Monsieur Ménard for seven minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Minister, let's look at page 3 of the estimates. Let's look at the grants, particularly at the grants for the Victims of Crime Initiative. I see in the last year's budget, you had $850,000; this year, we have $500,000. Why do you reduce this budget, if helping victims is so important for you?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

We don't just hold ourselves out to help victims, Monsieur Ménard, we are helping victims. It's a priority for this government.

They're having a look at this. I will repeat what I've already indicated to your Liberal colleague: the money is there, between the main estimates and the supplementary estimates. Every cent that I announced several years ago for this is there. In addition--and I will come out with the details in the near future--within the Speech from the Throne, there is an additional $6.6 million that is victim-related.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I understand that you say that the money is there. I see that there is some, but there is less.

Now, if I go to the next page—