Evidence of meeting #21 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Fournel-Laberge  As an Individual
Gaylene Schellenberg  Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
Scott Bergman  Section Member, National Criminal Justice Section, Canadian Bar Association
William Trudell  Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
Julie McAuley  Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Martha Mackinnon  Executive Director, Justice for Children and Youth
Agnes Samler  President, Defence for Children International-Canada
Les Horne  Executive Director, Defence for Children International-Canada
Mia Dauvergne  Senior Analyst, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Craig Grimes  Chief/Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Irwin Elman  Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Lee Tustin  Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

1:25 p.m.

Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Lee Tustin

Yes, I'm nodding, but I'm also thinking that part of the concern we had with most of the amendments is that it is based on one report as well.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

II would like to know if you think that, with the current provisions, judges are able to make the most appropriate decisions for that small group of violent and dangerous offenders?

1:25 p.m.

Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Lee Tustin

I would say yes.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Ms. Leslie is next.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

How are we proceeding?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

We've got your question, and then I'll go to the government side.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your testimony. You raise a good perspective in pointing out that true consultation wasn't done and that consultation is needed.

Mr. Elman, you said that perhaps you could get into the nitty-gritty of some aspects of the bill during questions.

Ms. Tustin, you said a publication ban is one of the things that you believe violates the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Can you let us know if other amendments or other pieces of this bill violate that convention, in your opinion?

1:25 p.m.

Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Lee Tustin

Yes, we just mentioned article 3 in the preamble. Article 16 and article 3 are two of the major ones.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

I don't know them by article. Can you tell me what the subject is, like denunciation insurance?

1:25 p.m.

Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Lee Tustin

Article 3 is that the best interest of the child is to be the primary concern in making decisions that affect youth. Putting the protection of public safety first is violating that article.

Article 16 is the right to privacy, and the publication ban lifts that right to privacy.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Do you think the change is about deterrence and denunciation, adding those into the bill? The principles in sentencing, do you think that's at odds with the convention?

1:25 p.m.

Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Lee Tustin

Yes. We didn't get an opportunity to go through the specific pieces of the bill we have concerns with--it's in the written piece--but, yes, deterrence and denunciation are two of them.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Okay.

My last question is for Mr. Elman.

If the crown must consider adult sentences, and then give a reason why they're not going to pursue adult sentences, when you were working with young people at the grassroots level, face to face, how did you see that mandatory consideration impacting the relationship between crown and youth?

1:25 p.m.

Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Irwin Elman

I'm trying to understand the question you're asking.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

It's okay. I haven't been that clear. I understand.

If there's a change to the act that says the crown has to consider an adult sentence for youth, and if they're not going to recommend an adult sentence, then they have to explain why. Do you think that would alter the relationship, if there is a relationship between crown and youth, or do you think it would alter the experience that youth have going through the justice system?

1:25 p.m.

Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Irwin Elman

I would say of course. It sets up the crown certainly as the enemy of the young person who is considering making a determination that would not be what the youth probably would consider is in his best interest. That's how I would answer that.

I'm not convinced that the YCJA is working well. We don't know. It's like a car I might have bought that I always wanted, a Mustang, and it's in my garage. You ask me how my car has been and I'd say I hadn't driven it yet. It looked good, but I couldn't tell you, and I didn't have any gas for it.

In terms of the provinces, and from talking to my colleagues, implementation of the YCJA needs some gas, it needs some resources. We can't tell how well it's working. Some of the issues that created the situation that forced the Nunn commission to come into being were a lack of resources.

We need to ensure that resources are in place to implement the act, and that's why consultation is so important, to understand where we're at in implementing the act before we change it. We're in the right direction, but our worry is that we're shifting course before we get to port.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

Mr. Woodworth.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I notice we're right at 1:30, so I'll try to abridge my remarks a bit.

I want to speak to Mr. Elman. I appreciate your comments and I've been impressed by your sincerity. I know you have it in your heart to advocate for children; that comes through loud and clear.

I wonder if you have ever had the opportunity to speak to or counsel a parent whose child has been beaten to death.

1:30 p.m.

Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Irwin Elman

I would say I have met, I wouldn't say in that particular circumstance, but, yes, I've met victims. I've met parents of victims--

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

The question was a parent whose child had been beaten to death.

1:30 p.m.

Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Irwin Elman

Not beaten to death, no.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I asked that question because we had an opportunity to speak to a parent whose child had been beaten to death, and in the aftermath, what was even worse was that she had another child—I forget if the other child was 11 years old, or something in that range—who was threatened by other young people and who ultimately had shots fired at him from a vehicle and was simply terrorized. The evidence was that perhaps there might be something we could do to improve the law to assist 11-year-olds or other young children who find themselves in that situation.

What improvements to the Youth Criminal Justice Act would you propose to protect children who are terrorized by such violence?

1:30 p.m.

Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)

Irwin Elman

That's a good question.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

It's the question we're here to answer, by the way.