Justice Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just so I'm clear--and I believe this is true of the other members of the committee on both sides of the table--obviously we are all supportive of the amendments that flow out of the Supreme Court of Canada decision. Even if we don't agree with them, we know they have to be in the bill. Clearly there's support from everybody on this committee with regard to not holding youth in adult agencies or custodial positions. Those provisions are there. I'll just make that as a comment.

To pursue this, though, I'd like to go back to the recommendations of the prosecutors. Have you seen those proposed amendments from the testimony they gave here that they followed up with written recommendations?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The issues have been discussed with them, but they have not given us any written proposals as to which amendments they would like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I've got a question, because we did get correspondence from the prosecutors after they testified. Your--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We will continue to look at anything that happens at this committee, Mr. Comartin, but you have custody of this bill at the moment, and I look forward to any report or any recommendations you happen to make.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily, Mr. Minister. It's still ultimately your bill and your department.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I appreciate that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to stick with the prosecutors. They were very clear. They work in this area for their department all the time. These are the problem youth they're dealing with. These are the three specific issues they addressed. I'm sorry I don't have the amendments here, but in each case they were very specific in both their testimony and the written material we got from them.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

They didn't give it to us. If you have specific amendments they are recommending, we would be glad to have a look at them, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We will pass those on to you.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We'll move on to Mrs. Glover for seven minutes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'm truly pleased to be here because I have some experience I'd like to share with you, if you'll allow me. Before becoming a member of Parliament, I was a police officer, and it was my pleasure to have been chosen by the chief of police in Winnipeg to be one of the trainers for the YCJA when it became legislation.

As a result, I was heavily involved with crown attorneys, etc., who were involved in putting forward the Youth Criminal Justice Act in our province. They had to make some decisions based on the guidelines as to waiver forms and those kinds of things. I was pleased to have been consulted on a number of facets of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I must say that as I trained the police officers of the Winnipeg Police Service, it became very apparent to me that this was a piece of legislation that was going to cause us an enormous number of problems with our youth.

We could see from the beginning that our youth were about to fall through the cracks, that the paperwork was going to be horrendous, that our youth were not going to be served, and that they were going to be exploited by adults who saw the Youth Criminal Justice Act as a tool to use our children to commit serious offences for which they themselves would suffer serious penalties. Under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, they could use children to commit these offences, knowing very well there were no deterrents, no denunciation, and no penalty. Unfortunately, our predictions came true.

I have to say that as a police officer who had to use the Youth Criminal Justice Act, this is probably one of the worst pieces of legislation I had to deal with in my tenure.

I'm going back, so I'm pleased as a member of Parliament to add to this discussion, because I hope to go back with some tools I can use to protect our kids--all our kids--because some of the kids involved in the criminal justice system are not there willingly. They are there because they have been exploited.

I want to share with you exactly what happened when the warnings, caution, and referral program came into play under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I would arrest a child for drugs. The Youth Criminal Justice Act said I must now warn. Have you ever seen a warn demonstrated, sir?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

A warn?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

A warn. This is what I do when I arrest a youth for drugs. This is a warn under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Okay, go ahead.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Give me your drugs. I'm taking you home. Don't do that again.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Are you sure?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's it. If you want to see a caution, this is it: give me your drugs; I'm taking you home, and I'm now going to write down, “Don't do that again.”

I'll tell you that it broke my heart. I knew these kids were about to be mules. That's what happened. We had a trend of adult criminals taking vulnerable kids off the street and saying to them, “I'll give you $50 if you go into Safeway and steal a tube of toothpaste.” The poor vulnerable child, who may not have eaten for two days, does exactly that and gets $50, which is an enormous amount of money for these children.

Then this criminal would tell this child, “It's $50 if you come with me into that house; we're going to steal a tube of toothpaste.” That would happen. Then it would be, “It's $50 more if you go by yourself. It's $100 if you deliver this package.” Now the kid is a drug dealer.

Under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, every time I was catching this kid with drugs, there was no punishment. There was no deterrence for that youth. There was nothing. It convinced many of these youths to proceed. My heart was breaking for them, but we continued to do our part, as police officers do, because we were the enforcers.

I have to turn to Sébastien's Law. I recently was in court with neighbours from my childhood. Their son was murdered. Their son was murdered by a 17-year-old. Two months after being charged with the offence, he was released on bail, and at the age of 18 he proceeded to almost stab someone else to death.

I ask you, Minister, what would have happened to that 17-year-old accused if Sébastien's Law had been in place at that time. What would have happened if it was a youth who had a previous criminal record and who had now allegedly murdered another person? Would he have been out in two months, or would the strict bail conditions you're proposing have potentially saved the next person, who almost died, from being injured?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As you know, there are bail provisions with respect to serious offences, and that is one of the changes we are bringing about in this bill. The bill strives to make youth accountable for their own actions. That has been very clear in this legislation.

If there are others—and you gave the example of adults who are participating in this criminal activity—there are existing provisions within the Criminal Code. They can and should be charged as well for their part in exploiting young people in this country.

The bill you have before you addresses a number of concerns you have raised. You're a good one to raise them, quite frankly; you have the experience in this area, and let me welcome you to this committee today. I know of your interest in this and I know of your expertise. You have been great in giving us input with respect to our justice legislation, and not just in this area, but in other aspects of legislation in the criminal justice area. I've found your expertise and advice have been invaluable since you have become a member of Parliament. I'm very appreciative of that.

The bill we have before you is targeted. It's specific. Again, I heard that in Manitoba. I heard people tell me they wanted to make sure the public was protected and that protection of the public would be one of the elements that would be part of the legislation. We have been only too pleased to be able to comply with that and to raise the protection of the public and innocent individuals under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, as well as to get help to young people who need help.

Thank you. Again, I appreciate your input on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Ms. Jennings for five minutes.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you.

To come back to the three points, I wish to ensure that the questions submitted by my colleague, Mr. Brian Murphy, will be answered. I wish to ensure that each point will be answered in writing to this committee, and in short order.

Is that correct?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That is correct, Madam Jennings.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you.

On the issue of the report, which is why you're here today, Minister—and I thank you for your presence—the quotes cited by Mr. Ménard and Mr. Comartin come from this report. This report purports to be an accurate reflection of what was heard in those consultations, which took place from May 2008 to August 2008, to repeat the dates you gave us.

The last two sentences on page 1 of the report read as follows:

Legislation cannot prevent crime, reduce crime or protect the public. Changing legislation will not change behaviour. The YCJA should not be changed just for the sake of change.

Here's the kicker:

There was an overwhelming consensus that the perceived flaws are not in the legislation; the flaws are in the system.

That's not me talking. That's not Mr. Ménard talking. That's not Mr. Comartin talking. That's the report, which purports to accurately reflect what was heard in those consultations in every single province and territory with all of the participants, the group of participants you mentioned. Without giving the actual names of organizations and individuals, this report says:

There was an overwhelming consensus that the perceived flaws are not in the legislation; the flaws are in the system.

That's one point I wish to make.

A second point I wish to make is that I take note of Ms. Glover's recounting of her experience as an officer in the City of Winnipeg police force required to deal with the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I wish to say that if one speaks to the police, whether they are the municipal police forces of Quebec or the current provincial police forces of Quebec, that would not be the experience they have when they arrest and find youth with soft drugs. It's not, “Give me the drugs. I'm going to drive you home. Please don't do that again.” That's not the case.

Why is it not the case? It's because the Province of Quebec, with the previous youth offender act, actually put into place a whole system of prevention--a system of working with children and families at risk and working with the social services program, the health programs, and law enforcement--so that when the Youth Criminal Justice Act came into effect, we already had the outside services that the overwhelming majority of the participants, from my reading of this report, said were needed. The problem was that the resources did not flow to where they should have in order to ensure that this legislation was effective--that is, to family services, to child protection, and to health programs. The resources were not there.

In Quebec they're straining, but the resources have been put in place and the programs are there. Maybe there aren't as many as we'd like, but police officers will not say and do what Ms. Glover described was being done in Winnipeg, and I'm thankful for that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Okay. You did read part of the report, Madam Jennings--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I read all of the report several times--