Evidence of meeting #46 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treatment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew McWhinnie  Andrew McWhinnie Consulting, As an Individual
Michael Spratt  Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Leonardo Russomanno  Member, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Lianna McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Signy Arnason  Director, Cybertip.ca, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Karyn Kennedy  Executive Director, BOOST Child Abuse Prevention and Intervention
Pearl Rimer  Manager of Research and Training, BOOST Child Abuse Prevention and Intervention

5:05 p.m.

Andrew McWhinnie Consulting, As an Individual

Andrew McWhinnie

What I'm saying is that we need to leave that decision to the judiciary, to the judge, who can make those kinds of decisions.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

How do you feel about that, Ms. McDonald?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Lianna McDonald

Well, these are obviously very complex situations. Certainly Ms. Kennedy could speak from her experience working directly with victims. But I would suppose that there are a number of personal dilemmas when families and children are placed in a position in which they have to talk about whether dad goes to jail, and that it would be quite difficult.

We know that in many cases these children still have feelings towards the harming parent. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's in their best interest to keep that unit in the same capacity.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Ms. Kennedy, how do you feel about leaving a perpetrator in the home with his or her victims simply because of their breadwinning potential?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, BOOST Child Abuse Prevention and Intervention

Karyn Kennedy

I don't feel that a perpetrator should ever be left in the home under any circumstances until there's been an opportunity for treatment, particularly treatment for the victim, treatment for the offender, and a process for the family. The victim's best interest always needs to come first. I think that's why we worked so hard many years ago to have decisions about arrests made by police rather than by victims. It's not fair to put a victim in a position of being asked whether the offender should be charged or whether the offender should go to jail or remain in the home.

I think there's always, always a risk when a sexual offence has occurred, even after treatment. We have to do the best we can to protect children, right from the outset.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you.

I'll go back to Mr. McWhinnie. If a defendant or an accused or a perpetrator, whatever you want to call him or her, is not employed, is not a breadwinner, can you envision a circumstance in which it would be in the family unit's best interest to leave that perpetrator in the home?

5:10 p.m.

Andrew McWhinnie Consulting, As an Individual

Andrew McWhinnie

I think what I want to say, and emphasize, is that, as Ms. Kennedy has just said, the safety of the victim is always paramount. They should not routinely be left in the home. I'm certainly not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, in part of my submission I said that there are cases when families will want the perpetrator removed from the home. That's fine. The people in a position to determine that are not us and are not this committee. They are the people who are dealing with the cases up front: the judge--not the police, not the crown prosecutor--and those who are involved with the family. This legislation has no room there. That's what I'm saying.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Do I have any time left? I think Mr. Woodworth has a question.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

I want to go back to Mr. Spratt and mention that we've heard evidence before this committee on this bill that pornographic materials are often one of the most commonly used methods for grooming children. Of course this bill creates a new offence regarding distributing or making available or selling sexually explicit material to minors. Would your agency at least agree that this is a step in the right direction?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Michael Spratt

The distribution of pornographic materials to minors for the purpose of grooming them is reprehensible.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Have you looked at this bill? Have you looked at that section? Does your association agree with that provision?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Michael Spratt

I have no difficulty with a criminal offence being created relating to the distribution of pornographic or other material to a minor for the purpose of grooming them or to induce them into a sexual offence.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Are you saying you can't comment on the specific provision that's in this bill?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Michael Spratt

I think I just gave you my answer. We're against anyone providing pornographic material to children for the purpose of grooming them and—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Am I out of time?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Yes, you are.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I just wanted to find out if he'd actually looked at this bill.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I know what you're trying to do. Thank you.

We're going to go on to Mr. Norlock, for five minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

My thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

My question will be to Ms. Kennedy.

We had a previous witness whose name was Ellen Campbell, founding president of the Canadian Centre for Abuse Awareness. She was also a child victim of sexual exploitation. She mentioned that victims of child sexual offences often feel marginalized and belittled when the punishment does not fit the crime. She said that for them, and I think this is an exact quote, that's why minimum sentencing is important: it gives a strong message, first of all, but secondly, “it's giving a strong message to the victims that their life is worth something”.

Then she related instances when people have committed suicide. They took the brave step and they went public. Some of them were in their mid-adult years, around 30 years of age or 40 years of age. That big step left them feeling they had made the wrong step, and they committed suicide.

Through your practice, your advocacy for victims, but in particular your dealing with families and victims, I wonder if we could have a general overall picture of how these types of offences, in particular dealing with children, leave the families. In my experience, I've seen where families require ongoing treatment, for years and years, for everything from alcohol abuse to drug abuse, self-medication, because of what occurred. They get a mandatory life sentence for the crimes perpetrated against them.

I wonder if you could make some comments in that regard.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, BOOST Child Abuse Prevention and Intervention

Karyn Kennedy

Certainly. I do know Ellen Campbell, and I know her opinion on this. I would agree with much of what she would say.

When a child discloses sexual abuse, it takes a lot of courage for them to do that. Generally it's something they have lived with for quite a long time--in some cases many, many years.

One of the key features for them in whether they will be able to recover and how quickly is what the response is. Do people believe them? Do they support them? Is the offender admitting and taking responsibility for this?

Many offenders will tell children, “If you tell, no one will believe you. I'll have to go to jail. You'll be taken out of the home. I'll be taken out of the home.” There are already seeds planted to make the child feel like it's their fault. If the justice system doesn't take the crime as seriously as the victim believes it should be, and the offender is not taking responsibility, then there isn't that feeling that he or she is being held accountable.

In one anecdotal example that comes to my mind, we worked with a young girl who is now in her early twenties. She came to us when she was 14. She had been abused for many, many years by a neighbour who lived across the street. He was an older person. He was convicted and he received probation, and they both went home from court together to their respective houses. He remained in his house across the street. He wasn't allowed to cross the street. He wasn't allowed to go to the same church. She went home, having gone through this process where she testified, which was a really difficult thing for her to do, and she saw him cutting his grass every day.

People learned about this. For her, there was no justice. She didn't feel that this person was held accountable. I can tell you many examples that are similar to that.

I think that if there isn't that sense of justice then it does a great disservice to children who have been victimized.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

We've heard how we need to provide treatment for the people who perpetrate these crimes. We really worry a lot about that. But would you not say there is a need for the treatment of the victims and that part of that treatment for the victims is feeling their life is worth something?

Would you also agree there's a responsibility of the federal government to properly fund health care, and that includes psychiatric treatment? Would you not also agree that an increase of 30% over five years towards health care that is provided by the provinces so we can have provincial health care services to meet those needs...? It's never enough, but would you say it's a step in the right direction?

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, BOOST Child Abuse Prevention and Intervention

Karyn Kennedy

Absolutely, and I would also commend the government for having established a fund to develop child and youth advocacy centres across the country. It is a very big step in terms of offering specialized services to children who are victims of abuse, and it will bring together all of the different sectors: police, treatment, medical, and mental health. You won't hear me disagreeing with more funding, no.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

We're going to Monsieur Petit for five minutes.