Evidence of meeting #20 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reasonable.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hamish Stewart  Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Greg Preston  Edmonton Police Service, Legislative Amendments Committee of CACP, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Alex Scholten  President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you, Ms. Davies.

Mr. Goguen.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming today. You brought up some interesting points. The finance committee will have to focus some more attention on it. Thank you.

A lot of the discussion we've had here has to do with the commercial context, obviously the shoplifting, and obviously everyone wants.... It's a cornerstone of the legislation that the police are the first line of defence against crime. Out of necessity, I believe, probably in a lot of cases security officers or designated personnel are necessary because the police are otherwise occupied. But what about the situation in more rural areas, where obviously because of geography, distance, limited resources, the police can't react immediately? Do you think the inclusion of the requirement that the person making the arrest reasonably believes the police officer cannot make the arrest because of circumstances is something that will cause citizens to behave, to not take on vigilante-type attitudes?

I will throw that open to each one of you.

12:55 p.m.

Supt Greg Preston

Again, we've looked at this. We believe it informs the decision-making. The idea is that if you have an opportunity to contact the police, we should be involved. I really believe that's all that provision does. It helps inform, so that people take reasonable steps. That's all we're asking.

That's my view of that. Again, what is reasonable will be informed by the facts. If we're talking about a rural community that is three hours north of any major centre, that's different from being in downtown Edmonton, Vancouver, or Toronto.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Fair enough.

12:55 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Hamish Stewart

I think that general point also applies to the self-defence provisions and defence of property provisions in a more general way. If it's possible to avoid a threat by calling the police to deal with it, then that's preferable to the citizen using force, particularly deadly force, to defend himself or herself. But sometimes that's just not possible.

12:55 p.m.

President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association

Alex Scholten

I would say that it's not just rural communities, but even urban sites, where having police attention to some of these matters is not very prompt. Retailers are frustrated by that. They feel the attention that is necessary to protect their business interests is not there.

Giving them the ability to act when a crime is committed, or a reasonable period afterwards, gives them more flexibility in terms of protecting their own interests and helping the police after the fact.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Did your association delve into Statistics Canada and figure out the average response time of the police on a shoplifting offence?

12:55 p.m.

President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association

Alex Scholten

No, unfortunately we don't have that.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I'm kidding.

Thank you. I have no further questions.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

We've completed all of our rounds.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here. I apologize that we lost the first quarter of the meeting, but it looks like it was sufficient in the end. We're a little bit early.

Thank you again for being here. It was very much appreciated.

The meeting is adjourned.