Oh, oh!
Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
Okay: you don't care.
That's a little more complicated, in that in Ontario, unlike a number of other provinces, there's been a kind of territory war. The psychologists have declared that they are the only people permitted to use the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Although I certainly know it, I am not permitted to make any kind of diagnosis. But I certainly have been part of the discussions about the upcoming DSM-5, if you would like me to speak about that.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No, I want to talk about DSM-IV. DSM-IV, as you know, because I know you were here for the first hour, categorizes a gender identity disorder as a mental illness—
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
—and I want to know if you agree or disagree with that characterization.
5 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
Not only I disagree with that characterization; the conversations have been happening of course for the last two years around what will be in the DSM-5, which will be published in 2013.
In 2013 there will not be “gender identity disorder”. That will be replaced.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
That's correct. There will be substantially different diagnostic factors, and, as a matter of fact, as we talk about gender-variant people, it will spell out that there is a broad spectrum of gender rather than just two genders.
WPATH, which is the most authoritative organization internationally, was invited to give a deposition to the DSM-5. In fact, the DSM-5 will recommend that the WPATH standards of care published in September 2011 should be taken as authoritative.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Does the fact that you disagree with the characterization in the DSM-IV of gender identity disorder as being mental illness disqualify some of your patients from health coverage for what I'm assuming is good treatment and good counselling?
5 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
It's a terrific question. It's a lovely question.
5:05 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
Because the medical system works like this, in order to get treatment you must have a diagnosis. If you don't have a diagnosis, you can't get treatment. That's just how the system works.
For example, the ICD is the international compendium of diseases, published by the World Health Organization. Discussions about the new version of that are under way now. That will come out in 2015. Certainly for most diseases, those are the codes that are used. When a doctor wants to bill OHIP in Ontario, he uses codes from the ICD for pretty much everything.
It's not written in stone yet, but the new ICD will probably categorize transgender or transsexual experience as being a physical disorder.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you.
I want to move to Mr. Dyck, if I have about a minute left.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Fantastic.
You indicated, I think in your opening statement, that if this bill becomes law, it is going to have more than a moral consequence for the community. I want to challenge that notion. You made some references about disproportionate numbers of members of the trans community being subject to assault and you made reference to law enforcement. I think it was Mr. Russell who talked about a flu shot.
I'm curious...and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Canada human rights code is very specific in its application. It deals with institutions that are subject to federal regulation, subject to the laws of the Parliament of Canada. That excludes the school system. It excludes most aspects of the health care system. It excludes most aspects of law enforcement, certainly municipal law enforcement.
So I challenge your notion that this bill will provide anything more than moral statements with respect to those situations that you described or those venues you described. It would, admittedly, be a remedy if somebody were discriminated against in the banking system or in the transportation system or in the federal civil service.
I'm curious as to whether you understand the narrow scope of the actual wording of this bill as opposed to what I think is really what's happening here, and that's a grand moral statement—not that there's anything necessarily wrong with a grand moral statement, but that's what I'm suggesting is what we're talking about here.
Mr. Dyck, if you have.... I have 30 seconds left.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Policy and Public Education, Egale Canada
First, my reference to the education system was with regard to the question of secondary victimization. I understand it's not covered by this bill.
In my opening statement, I was addressing my statements largely towards the Criminal Code.
If I could make a very quick reference there, if I have time to explain....
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Director, Policy and Public Education, Egale Canada
Okay.
The direct impact there, even though much of law enforcement is not directly under federal jurisdiction, is that if gender identity and expression are explicit within the Criminal Code, there will be a direct impact on the training that police services receive and on their knowledge regarding looking for and reporting something as hate-motivated against a trans person.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I'll begin with questions to Mr. Russell. Here you can also draw upon your own experience as a clinical psychotherapist.
What are the most common circumstances in which transgendered Canadians would find themselves the objects of discrimination? What are the most common patterns of discrimination?
5:05 p.m.
Psychotherapist, Trans Activist and Educator, As an Individual
Housing is an enormous issue. In both of the research studies, we have extraordinarily high numbers of people who have difficulty accessing housing simply because they are visibly trans.
For employment, ditto. Something like 78% of trans people experience discrimination specifically about being trans at work. It's almost 80% in terms of promotion and in terms of looks and appalling jokes and those kinds of things.
Then there's the issue that we've already been talking about: we are much more subject to violence—to physical assault, to sexual assault—than any other group. Like every group, that comes primarily from our families, but we are also subject to physical and sexual assault from complete strangers on the street, at rates far above any other group.
We can't access health care.
We know that harassment begins in kindergarten and takes place on the school playground, so it begins when we're very, very young. It continues throughout elementary school and it continues through higher education. The U.S. study is called “Injustice at Every Turn”, and it's very, very soberly demonstrated that that's the case.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you.
I'll just put a question, if I may, to Mr. Dyck.
With regard to this bill, would you have any concerns if the term “gender expression” were to be removed from the bill? Also, should the bill pass, do you see any lingering threats to the rights of transgendered Canadians?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Policy and Public Education, Egale Canada
First of all, I think that's a very complex question that is perhaps better addressed by a lawyer. I'm a public policy professional, not a lawyer; however, I'm happy to speak briefly to it.
My understanding, from speaking with our lawyers and given the way the Canadian system works, is that the phrase “gender identity” would be interpreted by the courts to include the expression of that identity. That would be in line with the Supreme Court's repeated statement that “a broad, liberal and purposive approach is appropriate” when interpreting human rights legislation. From that perspective, I suspect that we would be on good legal grounds with just “gender identity”.
However, I would be concerned that it does create some ambiguity, given that this leaves it up to the courts and we cannot guarantee that such would be the case. I would also be concerned as to what signal it would send if the committee were to remove it. In future cases, if the courts were to look at that as a signal that gender identity shouldn't be included, or if were not Parliament's intent, that would create a large concern for me.
