Evidence of meeting #58 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Terry Jamieson  Vice-President, Technical Support Branch, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Marie-France Dagenais  Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
Raoul Awad  Director General, Directorate of Security and Safeguards, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Commissioner James Malizia  Assistant Commissioner, Federal Policing Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

5:05 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

It's hard to say whether it will have an impact on how successfully a case is prosecuted. That being said, it gives us a bigger tool box. The 20 investigations I mentioned involved proliferation, in general, and were not necessarily specific to nuclear proliferation.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

You talked about tools, and this is an area where public safety is really at the forefront. We have some privacy concerns on our side. We want people's privacy protected.

How will you strike a balance in that respect? In this case, specifically, how can we reassure people that their privacy will be protected?

5:10 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

That's a good question, and I thank you for asking it.

I want to make something clear: the same standards we adhere to in any criminal investigation we conduct will remain in place for these types of investigations, particularly those related to terrorism. Following the O'Connor commission, we centralized our investigation monitoring.

So in terms of all activities we undertake as part of these investigations, we make sure that we follow all the relevant legislation and policies; we also make sure we monitor our investigations closely. The same procedures apply to these offences as well.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Davies, do you have anything to add on that front?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

Yes, just that probably what you're aware of is that any time a policy or legislation is brought forward, or civil servants are working on them, you work all the way along with legal services, which provide advice relative to privacy, consistency with the charter, and so on. Also, there's almost always a discussion with the Privacy Commissioner, their internal privacy experts, and most departments.

A good example of this would be the Beyond the Border initiative. If you look at it, you'll see that one of the commitments we negotiated with the U.S. is the commitment to privacy, the privacy principles. That was also discussed with the Privacy Commissioner before it went out, and so on. All along the spectrum or continuum of building new ideas to cabinet approved and Parliament approved policy and program legislation, there are waypoints to consult on the privacy issue.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Our next questioner is Mr. Albas from the Conservative Party.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to discuss this important legislation with our panel.

To the panel, I want to thank you for your expertise and experience. It's most welcome.

As the Minister of Justice said in his testimony in the last meeting, terrorism, nuclear or otherwise, is a “borderless” issue, and we must work cooperatively with our international partners.

Assistant Commissioner Malizia, in points that you raised in your briefing, you said that one of the keys to denying terrorists the capability to engage in nuclear terrorism is the effective cooperation among the full range of security and intelligence partners, both domestic and international.

For an example of this, I note that the briefing note points to a recent case to illustrate the importance of cooperation. It's the arrest of Mahmoud Yadegari, an Iranian Canadian citizen, in April 2009.

In the Yadegari case, a U.S. company tipped off U.S. export officials about Mr. Yadegari's attempts to purchase and hide the specifications of pressure transducers, which can be used in gas centrifuge plants to measure the pressure of uranium hexafluoride. Such dual-use technology has been linked to Iran's efforts to produce weapons-grade nuclear material. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement alerted both the CBSA and the RCMP about Mr. Yadegari's efforts. Thanks to the cooperative efforts, Mr. Yadegari was prosecuted and received jail time.

You touched on some of the measures that we are taking internationally to build further cooperation against these kinds of cases. In your opinion, has the RCMP developed close partnerships with the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, as well as the owners and operators of Canada's nuclear plants?

5:10 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

Yes, in fact, our critical intelligence infrastructure team is one of the areas. There are others as well, through our federal policing program, but we've developed good relationships with these agencies through our outreach program.

As you mentioned, the key, of course, is a good exchange of information, not only among law enforcement intelligence agencies but also among corporate entities and others. We've continued to work with them. We also provide them access to a suspicious incident reporting system, which is an online system whereby they can report suspicious incidents. All these reports come in, are collated centrally at the RCMP, and then analyzed to see if there are trends that we should be concerned with.

As well, we also take part in proliferation workshops, not only with the industry but with other agencies, such as, for instance, the U.S. ICE, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. We'll actually do some joint training with them.

There are several different initiatives that allow us to extend our reach, if I can say it that way, and allow us to share that information and ensure that all the pieces are connected.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

You have one minute and 15 seconds.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thank you.

Keeping on with international, because this again is a borderless issue, under clause 2 there is reference to the Attorney General of Canada through this legislation to have the ability to charge for extraterritorial cases, obviously working with the federal policing operations of the RCMP. It's my assumption that you would be working with the Attorney General of Canada if such a case were to happen. Could you give us a couple of examples of where this might be applicable, and if you think that this is an important aspect of this legislation?

February 11th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

The extraterritorial clause is advantageous for us in the sense that it allows us to charge a Canadian, of course, involved in such acts. It also allows us to charge a non-Canadian citizen who might have departed their home country and is residing within Canada, and there are some conditions around that. But certainly the extraterritorial reach, which is in line with the other terrorism offences in the code, allows us that greater flexibility to extend again with our international partners our ability to investigate those individuals and bring them before the courts.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Our next questioner is Mr. Jacob from the New Democratic Party.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

I am going to ask my question again, and it is for Mr. Davies, in particular.

The Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, is Canada's primary counter-proliferation enforcement arm. The agency screens nearly all shipping containers coming into Canada for radiation. An agency official told the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence that it had to risk manage the screening of items leaving the country.

What percentage of containers are screened as they leave Canada? What about cargo leaving Canada via air, rail and land transportation?

5:15 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

Thank you for the question, but I cannot give you those percentages. I'm not sure if the committee is hearing from members of the Canada Border Services Agency, but they may be able to give you precise numbers. If not, we could undertake to look into that for you.

Essentially it's a risk-based system. They look for a number of systems and frameworks to decide where to prioritize their resources and how to control exports.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Are you able to do the research?

5:15 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

We could undertake it, if you weren't already meeting with them, to talk to them about whether there are some numbers—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

If you could send that to the clerk, he would distribute that to everyone.

5:15 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

I'm not sure if they're available, but we will undertake to—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you.

CBSA recently experienced some cutbacks. What impact have they had on national security and defence?

5:20 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

Though I'm part of the portfolio that includes the CBSA, I don't directly work with the CBSA, nor do I know exactly how they managed any kind of budget cuts they faced during the latest financial cuts. Why don't we undertake to talk to them about that, and we can report to the committee on how they managed their resources?

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Very well.

This next question is for everyone.

Cooperation between intelligence and law enforcement agencies is essential in tackling nuclear smuggling and stopping plots involving nuclear material or devices.

What are the current and anticipated challenges in the investigation and prosecution of cases involving nuclear terrorism? Is there a good level of cooperation? Money is a key element in the war, as we know, but intelligence is also of the utmost importance.

5:20 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

Thank you.

Intelligence sharing is indeed vital. Sound intelligence shared in real time is not only important but indispensable if we are to properly investigate any type of terrorist threat. All investigations, not just those involving nuclear materials, depend on information being shared on a daily basis, on a regular basis. It is a matter of having well-established lines of communication with both our domestic and our international partners.

As for the wide range of investigations we conduct, I would say it's going quite well. The level of cooperation is excellent. The systems in place ensure that intelligence is shared effectively and allow for thoughtful decision making on which intelligence is shared, particularly at the international level, with certain countries. It is important to realize that the approach is very targeted and well defined, as a result of the changes introduced in the wake of the O'Connor commission.

I would say the relationships are not just well established, but also quite solid.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I'm already out of time.

Thank you.