Evidence of meeting #70 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
I'd like to call this meeting back to order, our second half of today's orders of the day.
We have with us from the City of Montreal Police Service, Dominic Monchamp, and from the Winnipeg Police Service, we have Inspector Gordon Perrier.
Gentlemen, each of you will have an opportunity to give an opening statement of no more than 10 minutes each. After that, as you've seen before, we will have rounds of questions from the different parties.
Who would like to go first?
Dominic, would you like to go first?
Gordon, you'll go first?
The floor is yours, sir.
4:30 p.m.
Inspector Gordon Perrier Inspector, Criminal Investigation Bureau, Division #43 (Major Crime Division), Winnipeg Police Service
Good afternoon. I'm honoured to be here today representing the Winnipeg Police Service, and I'm very pleased to speak with you on such an important issue.
Not unlike other urban centres in Canada, Winnipeg struggles with crimes of exploitation, procuring, luring, prostitution, and related criminal behaviour. Exploitation is not limited to cities or any one segment of our population. It's truly a community issue for all Canadians. Many of these crimes have their genesis in, or a connection to, human trafficking. I applaud the government for bringing into law specific sections of the Criminal Code to address these terrible events and give police real ability and methods to improve the lives of victims and stabilize those at risk. Legislation like this brings meaningful change to our communities and helps create a culture of safety.
The specific amendments in Bill C-452 including presumption of evidence for exploited persons, specific reference to a domestic context when speaking about trafficking, forfeiture provisions, and consecutive sentences are tangible items that both police and prosecutors have needed. Combatting exploitation requires a broad range of commitments on many fronts, and all the practices police and our partners employ come together when the laws are comprehensive.
Not unlike a puzzle, when pieces are put together you find strength and you can see the entire picture. To that end, I want to share with you some of our strategies and programs and methods as they relate directly to the current legislation and the amendments contained within Bill C-452.
The initiatives, strategies, and work practices of the Winnipeg Police Service have developed over a considerable time, always with a view to maximizing our resources, skill, knowledge, and abilities to address victim, community, or offender processes. For example, since 1990, officers of our sex crime unit have been part of a board that includes medical staff, a community outreach program called Klinic, victim service workers, and the RCMP. The goal of this group is to ensure that the practices and processes that are in place for sexual assault examination, interviews, and evidence gathering serve the interests of justice and the wellness, care, and dignity of victims.
Many victims these teams deal with are from exploited populations and we open doors for programming and longer-term care, and help make life changes.
Inside our service, we conduct yearly in-depth training on exploitation, sexual assault victim protocols, cycles of violence, and how to offer assistance. This training is mandatory for recruits and forms part of specialist training for all detectives.
In 2012 the child abuse unit partnered and helped found the Winnipeg Children's Advocacy Centre. This corporation is a child victims' centre governed by a board that includes police, justice, health, social service agencies, and victim services. The mission of this stand-alone centre is to facilitate multi-system collaboration and foster best practices in child exploitation investigations. Also, the centre ensures that victims receive sensitive and immediate support in a setting that puts their needs first. This set-up reduces system-induced stress faced by children who are victims of sexual or serious physical abuse.
The Winnipeg Police Service is also an active participant and contributor to the violent crime linkage system. More than two years ago, we changed our workflow internally and have a nearly 100% compliance rating for submissions and analysis. This has benefited local investigations and identified leads on cases that had run cold. These new leads have increased tenfold because of our changes in workflow and communication.
Since 2005, our integrated high-risk offender unit has been operating in partnership with the RCMP corrections and community groups. This unit aggressively monitors offenders for conditional order breaches and conducts surveillance operations on persons designated as a high risk to reoffend. They also facilitate Criminal Code section 810 order applications and public information notices.
Our missing persons unit was restructured in 2009. Currently, the unit manages approximately 6,600 missing person cases a year, many of which are chronic runaway children who need our help. We have developed a high-risk victim protocol strategy that aims to prevent the exploitation of youth and bring about stabilization in their lives. We do this by pairing a police officer and social worker together, shoulder to shoulder, to plan, manage, evaluate risk, and help each child as an individual. This program works. It brings a stable lifestyle to many and provides a real mechanism for police to identify those who prey on children in our malls, parks, and streets.
Finding missing kids is only the first part. We now probe further in these cases, and if we can bring charges of luring and of abduction of a child under 14 within the parameters of harbouring or concealing their whereabouts, we do so. Our vice unit is also involved in a number of tactics that focus on exploitation, prevention, and communication.
Deter and identify sex-trade consumer reports, or DISC reports, have formed part of our records management system since 2002. These reports often begin with front-line police officers conducting traffic stops. The information is automatically forwarded to the vice unit for analysis, and information such as behaviour, risk to the community, suspicious practices, or comments are noted and compared with ongoing cases.
Where children are potentially at risk, this information is shared with children's services, which have the ability under the provincial legislation to take proactive steps against the potential or actual offenders. The vice unit monitors known sex-trade websites and Internet advertisements daily. Undercover operations are conducted based on this information or these ads, and particular attention is given to exploitation, human trafficking, and child prostitution-styled ads. This has occurred for approximately five years.
The vice unit has regularly developed relationships with the Salvation Army; New Directions for Children, Youth, Adults & Families; Rossbrook House; Sage House; and the Native Women's Transition Centre Inc. These relationships have identified people who prey on the vulnerable for the purpose of forced entry into the sex trade. Vice investigations, human trafficking, cycles of exploitation and drug dependency, and techniques for helping sex trade workers are taught at recruit training and senior investigator levels.
In 2011, the Winnipeg Police Service assisted in the redevelopment of the curriculum for the province's core competency training course for understanding and working with sexually exploited youth. This exploitation training program is the only formal program in North America and is attended by social service workers, police, foster parents, health professionals, teachers, and corrections officers.
We also conduct programs to help both victims and offenders. Our prostitution offender program for johns began in 2002, and continues today. Approximately 50 to 70 offenders participate in this program each year. Conversely, our prostitution diversion program for sex-trade workers began in 2003, and also continues. Approximately 35 to 50 women complete multi-day, overnight programming each year. Police officers participate in all aspects of the program with social service workers, justice partners, and community specialists. Relationship building, trust, education, and change are our focus.
Our public campaign that is focused on exploitation, a sex trade reality check, has used public ads to raise awareness and to date has distributed more than 9,000 posters.
Another quarterly event is Project Return. This protocol includes social workers, both government and non-government, working with police during undercover police operations to assist with juvenile prostitution, treatment plans, and placement in safe, nurturing environments.
We have sponsored human trafficking training events in Winnipeg for police, crowns, and our partners to raise awareness and action. The Winnipeg Police Service has partnered on this subject with the University of Winnipeg and the University of Saskatchewan, by assisting doctoral students studying the dynamics of human trafficking and exploitation.
All of our practices have been looked at holistically in great detail over the last two years, and we recently realigned our missing persons unit and vice units within one division. All the units I spoke about previously are now contained in that division. This new division I speak of has been renamed the Specialized Investigations Division. This speaks to our commitment to victim-centred services, along with robust investigations that will bring those responsible for exploitation to account under the law.
In fact, Winnipeg police investigators just last year had a case where the specific human trafficking charges fell apart due to a number of factors, most of which were out of our control. Thankfully, investigators were able to regroup, continue the investigation on this gang associate, and bring about charges that resulted in a conviction and appropriate penitentiary term. This case had a procuring element, and it would have been both prudent and advantageous to continue the investigation from a forfeiture perspective.
Bill C-452 will provide opportunities and further accountability for those who offend. I can say with confidence that police are well versed in forfeiture investigation and presumption of evidence processes due to similar parallels and experiences in proceeds of crime law. The amendments in Bill C-452 will enhance our ability to remove the profit from exploitation crime. I know from my own experience as an organized crime investigator, that forfeiture and consecutive sentences work. Deterrence and breaking the cycle of profitability can change behaviour and prevent others from entering that offending cycle of behaviour, greed, and disrespect for others.
I do not have any direct recommendations today, but I do wish to express my hope that the resolve of legislators will not wane when it comes to human trafficking, exploitation, and improving the lives of all people within our borders.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you, Inspector.
Do you wish to comment, have a 10-minute opening, or just answer questions?
April 29th, 2013 / 4:40 p.m.
Detective Sergeant Dominic Monchamp Detective Sergeant, Multidisciplinary Investigations and Youth Coordination Unit for the West Region, Vice Section, City of Montreal Police Service (SPVM)
I'm going to make a short opening statement.
4:40 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
Good afternoon. I would like to thank you for having invited me here today.
I have been working as a police officer at the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal, or SPVM, for 19 years, and have spent almost 15 of those years on sexual exploitation investigations. Today I have decided to speak to you about what is happening on the ground, to give you an overview of how human trafficking works and what tools Bill C-452 could provide to us.
What we have to understand is that victims of human trafficking do not come to the police. What is of note in this type of situation is that we have to conduct proactive investigations to find victims of human trafficking. That has to be our main concern. The section on human trafficking and Bill C-452 do not limit these victims' freedoms. Quite the opposite; they give police the tools they need to be proactive and save these victims. These people are victims of serious crimes that often are similar to torture.
It's very clear that people who have been raped, held captive, abducted and burned are afraid for their safety and for their lives. The victims are unanimous: when they finally agree to come to see us, they are terrified of dying. What they are most concerned about is not whether the individual who did this to them will be arrested; they want to be assured they will be protected if they speak out. The first reflex people have when they have lived through such atrocities for so long is not to go to the police. Instead, it is to try to get away, to try anything, but not to speak out.
This explains why, in 80% of the cases we handle, we go and meet the victims, but they refuse to speak to us or to provide a statement. The statement never happens because they are terrorized, or, from another perspective, because they don't consider themselves to be victims, based on the cycle. It is a long cycle, it was mentioned earlier that victims are manipulated, desensitized and seduced until they meet with the more violent aspects of human trafficking.
It is extremely interesting to note that the bill provides for presumption. I want to assure you that presumption does exist in investigation on the procuring of persons. It is already there but it does not give carte blanche to the police. It does not free us from having to produce proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Here is an example of what presumption would allow us to do on the ground. Let's say that a trafficker controls six girls at the same time but that one of them manages to escape and does in fact agree to file a complaint. The other five will be terrorized, or not consider themselves to be victims, and will not want to do so. However, if there is presumption, we can use it and the testimony from the first victim as well as other investigation techniques to press charges regarding the other five victims. This is the kind of tool presumption would give us.
In other cases, we know that a trafficker controls a young woman. I could tell you about this kind of case all afternoon. If the young woman refuses to work, she will be locked up in the trunk of a car for an entire day or be made to kneel on an open rice bag in a living room somewhere all afternoon. We have the information; we know the woman works as a prostitute every day to bring in money, but we cannot build a case if she does not speak to us. However, with presumption and various investigation techniques, we would be able to press charges.
Human trafficking is a crime perpetrated over a long period, day after day, and it is often associated with other serious crimes such as kidnapping, forcible confinement, sexual assault, assault and death threats.
When human trafficking charges are laid, the charges that I have just described apply to 80% of the cases. Without making light of the seriousness of any crime of any type, we are not talking about a bank holdup. We are talking about predators who plan the exploitation of individuals, treat them as merchandise day after day, and take every possible step to make as much profit as they can, using these people.
Indeed, consecutive sentences for such serious crimes that have gone on for so long are clearly a deterrent. If you will recall the first part of my statement, when I mentioned that 80% of the victims will never come to see us, and when you think of the five- or six-year sentences that are given, and the fact that the victims want to be protected, you will understand that this will be extremely useful. I should also tell you that nearly all of the victims who finally agree to talk to us want to withdraw their testimony at some point in the process. Once again, it is for the same reasons; it is because they are afraid, scared, etc.
In one of the most recent cases where an individual was found guilty of human trafficking, the victim had to go back to court 15 times to be cross-examined by the defence in a way that defies description.
I apologize, I am somewhat emotional, but that is what I wanted to tell you. As for the rest, I would be happy to answer your questions.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you, detective sergeant.
Our first questioner from the New Democratic Party is Madame Boivin.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank both of you for coming here.
It is always moving but also more practical for me to hear from those people who work on these files daily.
An incident occurred in my region not so long ago. On April 24, the Le Droit newspaper ran an article about a young 17-year-old girl who had been tricked into prostitution. We talk a great deal about procuring now, about human trafficking, prostitution, etc., but the people involved are getting younger and younger. In this case, the article was about the trial of three young teenage girls charged with procuring. Unbelievable!
When we talk about crime networks now, we do not just talk about adults and organized crime, but street gangs too. And we are no longer just looking at the stereotypical white male of such and such an age. We are talking about young people who, through a social network, attracted this young 17-year-old girl and subjected her to what Mr. Monchamp was talking about. She was so afraid.
Some people could say that she should have got a grip, gone to see her parents and that would have been the end of the story. They put her in compromising situations, took photos and played on her fear. I have no doubt that this matter will wind its way through the normal course of justice. It would be more practical to provide you with tools.
However, with respect to presumption, I am not sure that that will apply in the case of trafficking minors. I am wondering whether we are setting something aside with respect to this presumption, but perhaps you are not in the best position to answer these questions. We will be hearing from some legal experts and they may be able to answer these questions.
You work in the field and this is part of your daily life. I asked Ms. Mourani this question. Sometimes, I have a bit of difficulty when I read the bill and sections 212 and 279 of the Criminal Code. This deals with procuring and human trafficking in this country. My problem may stem from the fact that I am not an expert in criminal law. I have worked in the labour law sector all my life, but it seems to me that there are many similarities. I am wondering whether we should be merging all of this. Perhaps you can guide me with respect to these questions.
4:50 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
There is a difference. Human trafficking has provided new tools. The main distinction, with respect to procuring, is that we must provide absolute proof for prostitution, but not in the case of human trafficking. With respect to human trafficking, we need to prove exploitation. The important aspect in human trafficking is the exploitation of an individual. With respect to procuring, there is a type of exploitation, but we need to prove that prostitution has occurred. So this removes the burden of proof to a certain extent. We have to be able to prove that the person has been exploited, regardless of the type of work or service provided. That is the first distinction.
The second thing is that there is a distinction made in the level of seriousness. With respect to procuring, there does not have to be evidence of threats or coercion. The individual who lives from the proceeds of prostitution may be charged. With respect to human trafficking, there is a graduated scale, there is coercion, threats, and safety issues for the victim, making it possible to separate two types of individuals. One does not prevent the other and the two clauses are complementary. The benefits provided by the two of them together can be used.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
But if there was a case of prostitution, that could be interpreted as a form of exploitation, as a form of trafficking with certain threats. Consequently, someone could be charged with two offences at the same time, correct?
4:50 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
These people would be charged with two offences.
4:55 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
Currently they are charged with two offences. In the case of trafficking, the advantage is that we do not have to prove prostitution or knowledge of prostitution. You have to understand that traffickers adapt. They will use middle people to train the girls, break them, in order to avoid this burden associated with procuring. They simply say that they were not aware of the service that had been provided, and as a result we cannot lay any procuring charges.
In the case of trafficking, however, when the trafficker has been directly involved in the activity of forcing the individual and of receiving money, we no longer have to deal with this burden. That is the distinction that I can make.
I would now like to respond to your question about presumption in the case of minors. Procuring applies to both minors and individuals who have attained the age of majority. No distinction is drawn, insofar as an individual who is regularly with a prostitute is deemed to be living off the proceeds of the prostitution.
However, presumption is not tantamount to evidence. That is what we need to understand. This is not something that enables us to close the investigation. Our investigation does not become less complicated. That does not mean that we can decide to work less hard.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
It reverses the burden of proof. In other words, in the case of presumption, it is up to the accused to establish the evidence. In theory, some people could tell you that this goes against the presumption of innocence, but let us agree that this may be justified in a free and democratic society.
4:55 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
Yes, but we should not have to meet the burden of reasonable doubt, which sets the bar extremely high.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you, detective sergeant.
Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Monsieur Goguen.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for both witnesses.
I would like to go back to the issue of presumption and use the example that you gave, Detective Sergeant Monchamp. Let's say that there is a group of six girls, and one escapes and wants to testify. We are presuming that the five others are subject to the same reign of terror. It is always difficult getting others to testify either to incriminate or clear the individual at issue. Would the fact that the others do not make a statement shore up presumption? Is this how such a measure will help you? I fully understand that you have to establish evidence aside from this presumption, because this could be circumstantial. However, would the absence of testimony from the five others, who could affirm that this was true or maintain that it was false, or simply refuse to testify, help you in establishing the evidence for your case?
4:55 p.m.
Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp
Yes, absolutely, it helps us. That is what determines whether we can lay charges or not. For example, if the first victim testifies in her own case that she was kidnapped and that the five other victims were also in the same situation, then she can explain the context and the circumstances. We will not only use those statements but will also use other evidence such as physical surveillance and wiretapping. There are many investigative techniques that will allow us to lay charges even if the victims refuse to testify or do not want to testify. That is what presumption gives us.
I would like to add one thing that I forgot to speak about earlier and that I would like you to consider. We're talking about consecutive sentences. This is interesting in a case involving several victims. Currently, if an individual is convicted for that offence, regardless of whether there were one, three, four or six victims, the sentence is the same: the individual will be given a five-year sentence. Are we not giving an advantage to the offender, and does it not encourage them to create more victims, for example five or six, given that there won't be a harsher sentence?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
The five individuals under that reign of terror could be convinced by the bad people to testify in their favour. Are they more afraid of them or of testifying in court? What is being done to support them, to create a support network that will help them get out from under that terror? Even if they don't testify, that's better than testifying in favour of the accused. How do you create that safety network?
4:55 p.m.
Insp Gordon Perrier
That's a very good question. This is what we talk about when we talk about building trust.
It has to start somewhere, and I'll give you an example. In Winnipeg, we had a very similar case to the one that the sergeant just outlined. We ended up proceeding by arresting those individuals for drug trafficking because they were so reluctant to step forward and give us statements on that. When they saw that there was action on the drug trafficking and that they were under arrest, that built trust and they started to talk about the other techniques and that they were being farmed out to British Columbia.
Then we went into an extensive investigation where we were able to find that they were running a very complicated fraudulent cheque scam involving these girls—involving them in other crime. Then once they got the airline tickets from the fraud crime they were doing, they were being shipped out to British Columbia for the purposes of the sex trade.
It's about building trust. It's about being credible with victims and recognizing that each victim is an individual. They want to be recognized and they want to be accounted for within the justice system.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
It's pretty obvious that in this day and age a lot of the illegal activity takes place on the Internet. You've talked about the web, etc. In the past this government tried to put in Bill C-30, which gave some important tools. That has been pulled back. There were some concerns.
Are there certain tools that would be useful to you in countering this type of illegal activity in the way of Internet surveillance, etc.?
That is something that can't be answered in the time that's left, but I'll throw it out for thought.
