Justice Committee on May 6th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Ms. Smith.

We have two groups left. We have Madame Morin from the New Democratic Party, who has the next five minutes, and then we'll finish up with Monsieur Goguen.

Madame Morin, the floor is yours.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you kindly.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. Their comments are extremely relevant.

I want to start by addressing the CATHII representatives.

I attended the conference you held in April. Most of the speakers highlighted the importance of putting the victim at the centre of the process. I found it very enlightening when, on the first day, a woman who had been involved in prostitution got up and explained how hard it was to break away from that. She also underscored the fact that there was little support to help with that.

One of the action plan's four pillars addresses support for victims. But I believe that component receives the least investment.

Do you think more could have been done as far as the assistance provided to victims goes?

My question is for all of the groups.

[Louise Dionne]

As I mentioned, in the case of aboriginal women, supporting community-based initiatives is truly imperative. The communities know the issues and have the ability to find solutions. They have them.

Your colleague mentioned forced labour victims earlier. On that issue, revisiting the immigration programs for foreign workers is essential, in my view. Those individuals are put in vulnerable positions. I once helped a domestic worker break away from the exploitation she was suffering only to realize that she was falling into a procuring ring. We solve one problem, but because we don't have the resources to help those people, they fall victim to domestic trafficking.

It's important to connect the two situations. They aren't inseparable. Ms. Mourani's bill does not separate them: it strengthens one of them, but does not take anything away from the other. I don't think there's a problem in that regard.

Supporting the provinces when it comes to assistance measures is also key, especially as regards health, social services and education. It's also important to help these women find a job so they can leave prostitution behind. Otherwise, they'll remain vulnerable and continue to work in prostitution.

[Claudette Bastien]

Ms. Dionne mentioned the Palermo convention and the possibility of using the proceeds of crime and assets confiscated from traffickers to help trafficking victims. I don't think that was included in Ms. Mourani's bill, but such a significant measure could help victims. Police who work in Montreal's west end have told us they don't have enough resources in their budget to help trafficking victims. Even they don't have enough money to help trafficking survivors. That's a major weakness.

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

Like Ms. Dionne, I agree that we need to provide these victims with health and social services and, as a result, support the provinces. All of that is expensive. We have ten recommendations, one being support for the provinces. I will tell you that success also depends on a change in thinking. How do we change the mindset of prostitution clients? Female prostitutes are involved in trafficking because there are clients.

A profound change in mentality is paramount. We have to undertake public campaigns to make people realize that seeking out a prostitute's services is not some innocuous activity, but a form of exploitation. You might think me naive, but Sweden managed to convince a large part of its population that this was a form of exploitation. So awareness campaigns do work, as in the case of domestic violence. The same approach should be used for trafficking and prostitution.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I don't know if you would like to add something.

[Naomi Krueger]

I should just say that Deborah's Gate is entirely privately funded, so we are at the mercy of the community supports around us. So if there were going to be a way to further augment the amazing work that's already been done, having resources to be able to support these initiatives not only in British Columbia but across the country, I think, would be a tremendous way to do that. Six hundred and twenty thousand dollars is a lot of money, so if there were a way to kind of clawback some of those resources and put them towards the benefit and the healing process for victims, I think that would give an incredible strength to the work that's already being done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you. That's your time. I'm sorry, madam.

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner is Monsieur Goguen from the Conservative Party.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question will be short, and I'll share my time with Mrs. Smith.

Thank you for appearing before us today.

In November 2012, Bill C-10, Safe Streets and Communities Act came into force. One of the things that legislation did was make it impossible for a judge to sentence someone convicted of human trafficking to house arrest.

Do you feel it's important to prohibit individuals convicted of human trafficking from receiving house arrest sentences?

[Louise Dionne]

Well—

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That would seem to go without saying.

[Louise Dionne]

The jails are full. I don't know whether we have the resources to keep everyone in jail.

We aren't against the idea. Is it doable? That is what I'm wondering.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'll turn the floor over to Ms. Smith.

[Naomi Krueger]

I would just say that we could reprioritize: He goes to jail. I think that trafficking absolutely has to be addressed from a Criminal Code perspective.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's a horrific crime.

[Naomi Krueger]

Yes, horrific.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

Thank you, guests, for being here today.

I have two questions. I agree with you about the Swedish model. It became the Nordic model, and that focus needs to be on the perpetrators and not on the victims.

But let's talk about the victims for a minute.

Naomi, you and I went through a horrendous time this past year with a victim who was tried. Her case did not turn out so well, because there's organized crime involved. Organized crime is tremendously powerful in terms of financial resources.

When you have one small girl sitting in a courtroom and the perpetrator's staring her down and his friends are coming in and doing the same not only to her but to everybody else in the courtroom, and you talk about victims' rights, including the right to be able to testify without that coercion and intimidation that's unspoken but very prevalent in terms of body language and all the rest of it, what can we do in terms of victims' rights? What should we do to change that?

[Naomi Krueger]

I think we need to remember that this is about dignity, testifying with dignity and being a witness with dignity and our ensuring that we recognize that somebody is describing horrific details to complete strangers—often before male juries and judges. So it's a form of retraumatization. I think we really need to recognize and there needs to be some sort of training and awareness of PTSD created among those who are involved in the criminal justice process and human trafficking so that when a victim does get to the stand and is willing to tell her story, she can count on the protection of those who are exacting her safety.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Let's take the case of this individual, because you and I know her very well. She went through the trial and she knew something was going wonky, and now she's in hiding again, but you're here today. This is very practical, and I know this means a lot to the victims. You're here today knowing that in this Parliament there are members on all sides of the House who are working together to strengthen the law against the traffickers and who are trying to make it as tight as it can be to protect her.

That evening when we were in the secret place with the detectives and everything, one comment she made was, “Thank you for making me feel as though I'm worth something”. Can you extrapolate on that today, on how that's going to help her to keep going? Because she has over a year to go before she can testify again.

[Naomi Krueger]

For this individual, the case went to a mistrial. They recently announced that the new trial date would be in September 2014.

So after waiting a year and a half to testify against her five traffickers, a mistrial was declared. She will have to wait another year and a half to testify again.

In that time, she was going to school. As soon as she finished testifying, she was off her anxiety medication. She was excited to go back to school. She started planning for her future. She was going to be reunited with some of her family members. Then, when she found out that it went to mistrial, it really set her back. We lost a year and a half of the work we'd been doing to rebuild her dignity, to rebuild hope. After hearing that she has to wait another year and a half to testify, she's really struggling to understand the meaning behind it all.

I think that really speaks to the brokenness in our criminal justice system to address this crime. I think it speaks to the reality that these are people's lives that we're asking them to put on hold so that we can hold the perpetrators accountable. We shouldn't be placing that much onus, that big a burden, on the victims. I think we need to get creative about the ways we look at this crime, in terms of holding perpetrators accountable, without asking so much from the victims.

I'll just leave it at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the questions. That's our time for that.

I want to thank our panellists here today for providing the information regarding the bill we're dealing with. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank each and every one of you and your organizations for the work that you're doing in this field. We appreciate that those of us around the table here don't see the issue—maybe Ms. Smith does—on a daily basis, but we know that you folks are dealing with it, and we really, really thank you for that.

With that, we'll suspend for one minute while our guests leave. We'll ask the staff from the justice committee to come forward, and the legislative clerk, to deal with clause by clause.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I call this meeting back to order.

I would also invite Madame Mourani to the table, if she'd like to come. It's a private member's bill, her bill, and I think that's only appropriate if she'd like to be here to take part in the discussion. As chair I think I'll honour that, as it's a private member's bill.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have nine amendments to the six-clause bill. We have set aside until 5:15, but we can go longer if needed, obviously, as we need to do this.

So we are doing clause by clause of Bill C-452. Put up your hand and we'll take notes and we'll recognize you. And if you want to ask the staff from the department a question, they'd be happy to do that—I'm not sure Nathalie's happy to answer, but she's here for that—or to deal with anything about the ruling. That's why I'm surrounded by clerks, because they don't think I know what I'm doing.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

They would be right.

[Voices]

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