Evidence of meeting #77 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was responsible.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stacy Galt  As an Individual
Louise Bradley  President and Chief Executive Officer, Mental Health Commission of Canada
Patrick Baillie  Member, Advisory Council, Mental Health Commission of Canada
Giuseppe Battista  Lawyer and President, Committee on Criminal Law, Barreau du Québec
Alexander Simpson  Chief of Forensic Psychiatry, Head, Division of Forensic Psychiatry, University of Toronto, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Lucie Joncas  Lawyer and Member, Barreau du Québec
Dave Teixeira  President, Dave.ca Communications, As an Individual
André Samson  As an Individual
Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Isabelle Malo  As an Individual
Ben Bedarf  As an Individual
Peter Coleridge  National Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Mental Health Association
Michel Surprenant  President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
Doris Provencher  General Director, Association des groupes d'intervention en défense de droits en santé mentale du Québec
Chloé Serradori  Analytical and Liaison Officer, Association des groupes d'intervention en défense de droits en santé mentale du Québec
Marc Ferdinand  National Director, Public Policy, Canadian Mental Health Association

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming today. It was very difficult for everybody being on the same panel. I really appreciate your contribution.

The bells are ringing and we do need to vote. We will come right back after the vote.

Just so my colleagues on committee know, so far we have 55 amendments, at least 22 of which are in order. Be prepared for a long evening on Wednesday night when we do clause-by-clause study.

Thank you very much. I'll talk about it more when we get back.

We're suspending the meeting now.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

We're going to call meeting number 77 back to order.

I want to thank our witnesses for waiting for us. We have three witnesses for this panel. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll have 10 minutes per witness and then we'll do a round of questions. Then we have another panel, another three witnesses. We have to be out of this room at seven o'clock, because someone else has it then. I'm trying to get us back on track as fast as we can, so we'll limit the rounds of questions.

We have one person on a teleconference from Victoriaville, Quebec. André Samson, can you hear me?

5:20 p.m.

André Samson As an Individual

Yes, I can hear you very well.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

You have 10 minutes for your presentation. The floor is yours.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

André Samson

Good afternoon. My name is André Samson. I live in Victoriaville, in the province of Quebec. I am 51 years old and I am unable to work. I live on my disability pension.

On August 1, 2002, my brother Martin Samson and his spouse Marie-France Foucault were murdered in their home in Victoriaville. The person who murdered my brother and his spouse was found not criminally responsible.

The accused was arrested. He was in the Hôtel-Dieu d'Arthabaska hospital for a few hours, then he ran away. The Sûreté du Québec helicopter and the response team spared no efforts to track him down. After several days of searching, he was finally caught. He was selling things to make some money and leave the city. The day after his arrest, he was charged with two counts of murder. The trial lasted a year and a half. We were very surprised to hear that the murderer was found not criminally responsible, because he was a very intelligent person studying at a school for adults.

Since then, we have not received much help. My family and I support Bill C-54, which will provide more information to victims and help them feel safer. Access to information with help families feel safer, because part of the fear and insecurity experienced by families of murdered persons stems from a lack of information in this NCR system.

My family would very much have liked to know what was happening at the mental health review board hearings. We were never kept informed of the proceedings. We were never invited to the review board hearings. We were never given an opportunity to speak. We were cast aside. We were in a vacuum and we had no documents. For four or five years, we did not know where he was living. Had my girlfriend not been a court clerk, my family and I would not have known which hospital he was staying at. Had she not been my girlfriend, she would have never told me.

My family was not informed. We had no idea whether the attacker was taking his medication and whether he responded to treatment. We had no idea whether the attacker had any rights to leave the hospital or when he would be able to leave. We had no idea whether he was accompanied when he went out. We were never told when he was discharged from the hospital. I found out two weeks later. My girlfriend told me and I told my family.

My parents had to take steps to keep themselves safe because they were afraid that the attacker might go to their house and threaten them. We were not aware of the conditions of his release.

One day in January 2011, I was in the shopping centre and saw the attacker who had killed my brother and his wife. When I saw him, I was frustrated and afraid. I was under stress. I was at a loss.

Victims like us deserve to be part of the legal process. But we have been completely excluded. I often wonder whether we, as victims and as human beings, also have a right to security and to information. We have been denied our rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We should be respected as victims because the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that Canadians have the right to life and security.

My brother and his wife were deprived of that right and, to make matters worse, the members of my family and I had no right to security, as we were never informed about his release. Security goes hand in hand with the information provided to victims. How can we feel secure if we do not know when a murderer will be let out of prison and when he can roam the streets and come into our neighbourhood?

This bill gives the right to security back to victims. At the moment, the aggressors have better protection than the victims. This legislation will provide more supervision to those declared not criminally responsible. By remaining under supervision longer, and by having more access to medical resources, the aggressors will be able to stay in their rehabilitation programs longer.

Having information would have made us safer. This bill will let victims be informed and feel safe. It restores dignity to the families of those who have been murdered.

Thank you.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, sir.

Next we have two witnesses from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.

Introduce yourselves, and we'll give you 10 minutes.

Thank you very much.

5:30 p.m.

Nathalie Des Rosiers General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Good afternoon. My name is Nathalie Des Rosiers. I am general counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I am accompanied by Michelle Thomarat, a student in our office.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

I will speak in French first and then in English. Basically, I want to make three points.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

First, it is the association's position that we need an approach that fully meets the needs of the victims; the need of the victims for information is certainly recognized here. It also recognizes that there are major gaps in support and financial assistance for victims and also in the access to mental health services that can prevent the tragedies we are hearing about today.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

André Samson

Yes, yes.

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

As our first point, to a certain extent, we feel that it would be preferable for this bill to have been set in a broader context of support, and to have as a strategy the protection of and support for people who are victims of crime and, specifically, a broader strategy of fighting mental illness and its effects on society.

My second point essentially deals with some food for thought, with a criticism. The key point in this bill is the definition of “high-risk accused”. The minister wants to make a distinction here. We have to decide whether, in so doing, he has used the right language and the right concept.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

We have to ask ourselves if we are not, in a way, changing the therapeutic approach that is necessary to treat mental illness and confusing it with a more punitive approach where punishment is the main thrust and the aspect of therapy, in the sense of managing the mental illness, comes second.

My third and final point deals with the need to evaluate the bill if it goes into effect, because experts differ greatly on the real effect that the bill will have on public security.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

André Samson

Yes, yes, yes.

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

My three points are essentially these.

Number one is the necessity that this act should be framed in the context of a larger strategy on mental health.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

In a way, although it does aim to respond to the informational needs of victims, it does not respond to other needs, for example, financial help and support. It certainly addresses very little the need for prevention and the lack of access to mental services in Canada, a problem that we are particularly aware of, since many people call us.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

André Samson

Yes, yes.

5:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

Are you trying to...?

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

André Samson

That's good.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Monsieur Samson, when somebody else is doing their presentation, we don't need any comments from you.

There'll be questions for you in a few minutes. We'll let you know.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

We can hear you say “oui”.