Evidence of meeting #30 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was heard.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Patricia Kosseim  Senior General Counsel and Director General, Legal Services, Policy and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Megan Brady  Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

I'm going to call this meeting to order. That means our friends from the media have to leave with their cameras. Thank you very much.

We're at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, meeting 30, as of the order of reference of Monday, April 28, 2014, Bill C-13, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act, the Competition Act, and the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act.

We are televised for the first hour, and we have the pleasure of having witnesses from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Mr. Therrien.

Welcome, Commissioner. You can introduce your guests. You have 10 minutes, and then we'll go to questions and answers.

The floor is yours, sir.

11 a.m.

Daniel Therrien Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, members of the committee.

Thank you for your invitation to present our views on Bill C-13.

With me this morning are Patricia Kosseim, Senior General Counsel, and Megan Brady, Legal Counsel.

Today, I will first address the cyberbullying aspect of the bill, and then turn to the elements that introduce new investigative powers, as both aspects implicate privacy.

The Office of the Privacy Commissioner unequivocally welcomes the government taking action to address online bullying and abusive use of intimate personal images. This is a pressing social issue that is of serious concern to Canadians.

It is clear that Internet use has shifted many of our traditional views about privacy. Better education, legal reform and public discussion must all play a part in addressing the problem. We feel that a holistic approach is needed that includes public awareness—such as the government's new Stop Hating Online initiative—as well as a strong emphasis on digital literacy education.

We think it is important that children, parents and teachers all have access to educational resources that help explain online risks, and teach responsible use of technology and ethical behaviour in online interactions.

The government has signaled a commitment to digital literacy as part of its recent Digital Canada 150 strategy, and we would like to see continued dialogue and outreach to youth and educators as part of that effort.

Cyberbullying clearly presents grave risks to individual dignity and privacy for all citizens who use social networks and online communications. We believe the criminalization of non-consensual distribution of intimate images and the extension of existing Criminal Code provisions related to harassing communications sends a clear signal. We also need to ensure that cyberbullying carries serious consequences.

There are still clearly some complex privacy questions attached to many of the proposed measures, particularly those concerning some of the new investigative powers.We agree that the laws need to be modernized, but we have concerns about some of the specific proposals contained in this bill. Given the technical aspects of these amendments, my office has provided you with a written submission outlining these aspects in detail.

Allow me now to summarize our main concerns briefly.

I would begin by reiterating my view that, given the complexity of the issues you have been presented with in the course of your study, I would recommend dividing the bill into its constituent parts.

From a privacy perspective, the offence provisions are largely uncontroversial and could be dealt with quickly by the House of Commons and sent on to the Senate for review. On the other hand, given that sensitive personal information and significant police powers are at play, the lawful access components deserve very close scrutiny and would benefit from a focused and targeted review.

Our first concern, Mr. Chairman, relates to the issue of thresholds for authorizations. The accessing of data is significantly more intrusive than its preservation. While reasonable suspicion may be an appropriate threshold for preserving data, we believe that Parliament should closely scrutinize the proposed threshold for judicial authorization to access certain data. The divergence from the constitutional default of reasonable and probable grounds requires full explanation and a justification by government, and merits a cautious approach.

There is a wide range of new powers attached to Bill C-13, under which sensitive information would become more accessible to law enforcement and a wide range of other governmental authorities at a lower legal threshold of reasonable suspicion.

Transmission data provide a useful example of how authorities can obtain sensitive records via a reduced legal threshold under the new regime. Reasonable suspicion to access transmission data uses the precedent of the standard currently required to use a dial number recorder, or DNR; however, the information and records comprising “transmission data” as it is defined in the bill can be significantly more revealing than a record of telephone calls.

We believe that suspicion is too low a threshold for such potentially revealing information in a digital era, when every transaction, every message, every online search, and every call or movement leaves a recorded trace. As a result we suggest the bill use the traditional standard of reasonable and probable grounds to believe for the provisions under which access to information would be granted. This is the standard that should hold until a more compelling case for the use of a reduced legal threshold is presented and thoroughly examined.

A second concern is the broad range of authorities that can rely on these powers. The investigative powers and provisions in Bill C-13 see both peace officers and public officers at all levels of jurisdiction in Canada broadly empowered with a whole range of new techniques. While many law enforcement and security agencies have robust accountability mechanisms, other government bodies implicated by this definition have no dedicated review and no transparency requirements. We find this to be of particular concern.

Thirdly, there is the key question of legal immunity. Bill C-13 contains an amendment specifying that a person or organization enjoys legal immunity should they voluntarily preserve data or provide a document at an investigator's request without court authorization. We are concerned that this broad language could lead to a rise in additional voluntary disclosures and informal requests. This is of particular concern with private sector companies that are otherwise prohibited from disclosing personal information without consent under PIPEDA or substantially similar legislation. In essence, this could amount to permissive access without court approval and oversight.

Ultimately then, we believe Canadians expect that their service providers will keep their information confidential, and that personal information will not be shared with government authorities without their express consent, clear lawful authority, or a warrant.

Finally, there is the question of accountability and transparency mechanisms for new forms of surveillance.

There are no requirements in the bill to report on the extent of the use of any of the new powers. I feel that this is of serious concern, especially given the range of officers who can exercise these powers and the possible effects of extending legal immunity. In many other jurisdictions, ongoing reporting is part of the oversight structure. We believe Canada should have similar ongoing measures for reporting.

Thank you for your attention.

I look forward to any questions committee members may have.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you for providing us with your notes in writing so that every committee member has them.

Our first questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Madam Boivin.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I want to thank you and your officials for being here. I am sure they have had more time than you to read Bill C-13, but I still appreciate your contribution to our study.

On Friday, the Supreme Court is supposed to render a decision in Matthew David Spencer v. Her Majesty the Queen. Do you think that could affect the work we are currently doing?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Ms. Boivin, if that's okay with you, I will ask Ms. Kosseim to answer this question.

11:10 a.m.

Patricia Kosseim Senior General Counsel and Director General, Legal Services, Policy and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you very much.

The Spencer ruling, which is supposed to be handed down this Friday, will definitely clarify the parameters, interpretation and application to the private sector of paragraph 7(3)(c.1) of the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, or PIPEDA. We will then find out what disclosure parameters or requirements will apply to companies that disclose personal information to the police without a warrant.

In particular, this decision will clarify the relationship between paragraph 7(3)(c.1) and the immunity provision currently contained in the Criminal Code. This is relevant because the Supreme Court's ruling could impact the new provision that would replace the current one.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Excellent, thanks.

You, at the office of the commissioner, probably analyzed Bill C-30 at the time. How does Bill C-30 compare to Bill C-13?

11:10 a.m.

Senior General Counsel and Director General, Legal Services, Policy and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Patricia Kosseim

We are pleased to see that the provision that would have allowed warrantless access to personal information, and especially to subscriber data, has been removed and is no longer on the table. That is clearly an improvement.

However, we did have reservations over some provisions of Bill C-30 that are also part of Bill C-13. I think the commissioner has done a good job of presenting our concerns.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Regarding your request that the bill be split—which is something we called for a number of times—the minister or the government always respond that the two parts go hand in hand. In other words, if we want to end cyberbullying—including the distribution of intimate images—we have to be able to give police officers powers and modernize those powers. In my opinion, splitting the bill does not mean that we want to prevent that piece of legislation from being passed. However, that may imply that we need to conduct a bit more comprehensive of a study.

In committee, I heard some government members say that we have heard from numerous witnesses. I do not claim to be an access to information expert when it comes to information transfers concerning litigants and others. This involves several pieces of legislation. I do, however, get the impression that we are carrying out a very narrow study that focuses strictly on the Criminal Code, while many other statutes could also have an impact in that regard. That may be something our study will be missing.

I don't know whether you are following what I am saying, but I would like to hear your comments on this major source of concern I have in terms of the work we are currently doing in committee—the work on the second part.

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Mr. Chair, our comments are very much in line with the questions asked by Ms. Boivin.

I heard Minister MacKay say that the two parts go hand in hand. If I understand correctly, those types of crimes cannot produce concrete results in terms of charges and other considerations without the legislation governing investigative methods being modernized. I agree, and so does the commissioner's office. Laws on investigative methods should be modernized in a modern world where technological tools, including the Internet, are now used. We fully support the objective of modernizing legislation that governs investigative methods.

However, our concerns relate to the specific methods suggested in the bill. In particular, those methods require fairly detailed and advanced technical notions. We don't think an undue delay would be caused if experts were asked to look into those technical issues, possibly before a House committee. That way, parliamentarians could be better informed of the concrete consequences of legislative measures presented before them and could provide useful investigative tools that would not unduly limit Canadians' privacy.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I don't know whether you have examined this issue, but newspaper articles are being published around the world about all kinds of events, such as the Snowden case. Some providers of IT, Internet and telecommunications services appear to be trying to tighten their criteria so as to protect their clients. Governments do have some involvement in that. We feel that certain governments, like that of Canada, are trying to obtain as much access as possible, while providers are mobilizing to maximally protect the information.

Am I wrong to feel that the government is using any means available—be it Bill S-4, Bill C-13, or others—to expand access to information involving Canadians without too much difficulty?

Do you have anything to say about that?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Very briefly....

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Just quickly, I would say that the government appears to be bringing forward legislation that modernizes those legislative measures in order to modernize investigative methods. That seems like a legitimate approach to me. However, we still have some concerns in terms of the specific methods proposed.

Despite the government's laudable goals, I encourage this committee and the House to ensure that privacy interests are well protected.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for those questions and those answers.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Mr. Dechert.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Therrien. Welcome to our committee.

Congratulations on your appointment. We're very pleased to see it.

You mentioned a few things you would like to see changed in Bill C-13. One of your comments was that you would recommend that the bill be split into two parts so further study could be done. Frankly we've heard that from a few witnesses.

Have you followed the debate in the House of Commons on this bill?

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

I have to some extent, but not as closely as my colleagues.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay. Your colleagues certainly can inform you on that.

Are you familiar with the testimony that has been provided to the committee in their last several meetings on this subject?

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Some, but again my colleagues would be better placed.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

I can fill you in. There have been 12 hours of debate in the House of Commons on this bill so far. It includes 21 members of the New Democratic Party, which is more than 20% of their caucus. It includes 11 meetings of the committee, including today's. That's 22 hours of study in committee, so the total is 34 hours of debate and study.

The committee has heard from 21 special interest groups: 10 victims or groups representing victims, the police, professors of law, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the Canadian Bar Association, the Criminal Lawyers' Association, the Canadian Association of University Teachers, and I could go on. I think you catch my drift.

Who else would you recommend this committee hear from, and I can tell you virtually all the witnesses requested by all parties have been heard from including you. How much more study do you think should be required on this bill and the investigative powers provisions of this bill?

11:20 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chairman, from the list you describe I readily accept there has been a serious examination of this bill. At the same time I see that many people who appeared before you have suggested the bill be divided, and I would suggest it is perhaps for the reasons I alluded to earlier. Although there have been many sessions on the principles, and perhaps more than the principles, I think there is a need for a more fulsome discussion about the practical impact of this legislation from a technical perspective so parliamentarians and Canadians can know precisely what kind of information would be disclosed through things like voluntary disclosure and so on.

It's more of a technical discussion on the practical import so parliamentarians and Canadians can have a more informed conclusion on this bill.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

I asked the same question of the Canadian Bar Association, and they had no suggestions on who else we should hear from. I can tell you, sir, each of the points raised in your comments about your concerns have been raised by several witnesses on several occasions, including all those special interest groups and law professors I mentioned.

Are there any other aspects of this bill you want to tell us about that haven't been mentioned either in the House of Commons or here at committee?

11:20 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

No. I think it would be useful to have law enforcement agencies and telecommunications companies explain the practical import of what is before you. That essentially is my message.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

On Thursday, May 15, you may know the committee heard from Mr. Jim Chu of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, who is the Chief of Police of Vancouver; the Ontario Provincial Police; the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and the Halifax Regional Police. Each of those agencies told us these investigative powers are necessary, as drafted, to allow them to properly investigate cybercrimes.

Are there any other police organizations you think we should hear from?

11:20 a.m.

Megan Brady Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Certainly, the information the police associations have provided provides one slice of the picture. The other information you heard through previous committee hearings was the fact that the Internet Association, representing the organizations actually collecting the data, feels that the data is so sensitive that a higher legal threshold is required.

From that perspective, our view is that given that these organizations are the ones collecting it, they're the closest to it and they understand the sensitivities the best.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

The Internet Association was here and they did make those comments.

Mr. Therrien, are you familiar with the cybercrime working group report on cyberbullying?