Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Timea E. Nagy  Founder and Front-Line Victim Care Worker, Walk With Me Canada Victim Services
Robert Hooper  Chair, Walk With Me Canada Victim Services
Émilie Laliberté  Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Naomi Sayers  Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Anne London-Weinstein  Director, Board of Directors, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Leonardo S. Russomanno  Member and Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Janine Benedet  Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
John Lowman  Professor, School of Criminology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

2 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay.

Ms. Sayers, you work with indigenous women in this business. Do you know of any under the age of 18?

2 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

I speak from experience. In London, southwestern Ontario, sex workers—and we work with Safe Space, an organization in London, Ontario, that works directly with outdoor sex workers. They literally offer a safe space for them to come. In London, the trade isn't predominantly indigenous, but that doesn't mean they're not there. So speaking from experience.... This is really hard for me to answer.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Have you ever met a sex worker under the age of 18?

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

A sex worker can advertise however they want.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

But have you ever met a person under the age of 18 who's in the business?

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

I don't really ask....

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay. You don't know, but it's possible?

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

Most people I've met have been 18.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay.

Ms. Benedet made an argument that I thought was interesting. Ms. Sayers, since you work with people in this industry, do you agree with the Criminal Code provisions that make the sale of sexual services under the age of 18 criminal?

There are provisions in the Criminal Code, which were not struck down by the Supreme Court in the Bedford decision, that say that anyone who's under the age of 18 providing sexual services, communicating for the purposes of selling sexual services, that's still a criminal offence in Canada. Anyone procuring or encouraging or employing someone under the age of 18, that's also criminal. Do you agree with those provisions?

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

I like to quote Justice Himel's decision where she stated that although those are important issues, child prostitution and human trafficking are not essential to analyze the charter challenge with the women who filed the charter challenge.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay, so you're not saying either way whether you agree or disagree with—

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Naomi Sayers

I am saying that I agree with Justice Himel's analysis that those are two separate issues.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay.

Ms. Nagy, what do you think? Do you agree that the—

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Émilie Laliberté

How does your question relate to Bill C-36?

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Yes. Well, I'm asking what.... My question....

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Émilie Laliberté

I'm just asking you a question.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Do you agree with the current provisions of the Criminal Code that criminalize some aspects of underage prostitution?

2:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform

Émilie Laliberté

I agree with what Ms. Sayers said.

The prostitution reforms and the Bedford ruling have nothing to do with underage prostitution. You're trying to steer the debate away from the real issues and the content of Bill C-36.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Fair enough. I'll accept that as a non answer.

Ms. Nagy, do you have a point of view on that?

2:05 p.m.

Founder and Front-Line Victim Care Worker, Walk With Me Canada Victim Services

Timea E. Nagy

We agree with that, but we would go further and say that instead of criminalizing we would like to apprehend the child under the age of 18 in need of protection.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Right.

Ms. Benedet's argument was that no one is saying the provisions of the Criminal Code that continue to exist that criminalize some aspects of underage prostitution make it more dangerous for those prostitutes under the age of 18 and therefore should also be struck down.

Am I getting that correct?

2:05 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

Not quite, and that's why, if I may, I just want to clarify.

I'm focusing on subsection 212(4) that makes it an offence to buy someone who is under the age of 18. I'm saying that no one is making the argument that somehow we'd better repeal that provision because it pushes child prostitution underground.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay, fair enough.

2:05 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

So I'm focusing here not on the child who is selling herself, who is clearly not a criminal in any sense, but the person who is buying that underage prostitute.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Mr. Russomanno, do you agree with Professor Benedet on her argument about the purchase of the sexual services of someone under the age of 18?