Justice Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2015

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Casey, I have to say that when I first was approached to carry this bill forward, as a person of faith I had a hard time getting my mind around it, because of course I believe in confession and forgiveness and reconciliation, but I came to the determination that justice should not be trumped by compassion. Society expects justice. Quite frankly, there could be a person who has 40 years before parole who has turned their life around, and that is great, but they still have to pay their price to society. I think they need to recognize that and we need to be firm with that.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Do you accept that this is entirely likely to make the job of correctional officers more difficult and more dangerous because there's one less incentive for these criminals to behave in a less destructive way while incarcerated?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You're speculating and I don't necessarily agree with that statement.

Quite frankly, if they are less inclined to be cooperative because they are going to have to wait for 40 years for parole, they shouldn't be let out in the first place. They shouldn't be let out in 25 years. Let's face it; if they're that type of person who is not remorseful and is not willing to understand the gravity of the crime and that they have an obligation to society to fulfill that punishment, then quite frankly, they shouldn't be paroled earlier than whatever the judge decides.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Have you had any consultations with the representatives of correctional workers to determine whether they have any of the concerns that I've identified?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

My concern in this bill has not been the offender; it has been the victims, and so I have talked to a lot of victims. I'm not going to take all my time, or any time, to talk to the offenders.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I didn't ask whether you had spoken to the offenders; I had asked whether you had spoken to the people who guard them.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

No, I haven't.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

Can you give us an appreciation for the impact of this bill? How many people who are currently incarcerated would be impacted? How many of these types of horrific cases have there been, say, in the last 10 or so years?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

First, Mr. Casey, this bill will not be retroactive. I think that has been plain from the beginning. It will be just those future cases. I have a binder with the file of a number of cases right back to Clifford Olson and some of the things that he's done at parole hearings in harassing the victims of his crime, but I haven't got a fixed number of how many cases.

It's not for me to make that judgment of how horrendous the case is, whether or not that qualities as a heinous murder. It's up to the judge to make that determination, not myself.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

No, I disagree with you on that. You've specifically set out sections of the Criminal Code, and if there's an offence contrary to those sections of the Criminal Code for which there has been a conviction, then these sections apply. This is something that should be readily available—

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Yes, you're right.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

—as to how many of those cases have there been. What is the impact of the problem you're seeking to address in numerical terms? I realize in human terms it's immeasurable, but what is it in numerical terms?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

If you don't mind, Mr. Casey, I actually have the answer based on input from the analysts. There are 636 designations for dangerous offenders since 1978. That's as of 2013.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you for that helpful information, but a dangerous offender is not necessarily one who has been convicted of the three classes of offence that are the subject of this bill. There would be a whole lot of others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

This is the number of those who have the designation.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Yes.

The class of offenders who are subject to this bill, the minimum period of parole for all of them is now 25 years. Right?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Correct.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay, so this gives discretion to a judge to take it from 25 up to as high as 40.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's correct.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay. Has there ever been anyone who has committed the offences that are set out in your bill, so the class of offender that you are targeting, who has been granted parole?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Not to my knowledge, but I go back to the case that this is not about the offender; this is about the victims. Why don't we add up the number of victims who have had to go to parole hearings and go over the offence, and have had to hear that over and over again at every parole hearing? Let's talk about those numbers. Let's not worry about the offenders in this bill.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

It's your intention that this will keep the dangerous criminals behind bars longer. Right?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I just finished saying that they're going to be.... All of them have been behind bars for life. Correct? What's the question that you're asking, then?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Have you done or obtained any sort of an estimate of increased costs to the system that would be incurred because of this?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I don't like to attach costs to justice. I'm sorry.