Justice Committee on Oct. 24th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you. Does anyone else wish to intervene? I'm glad we've had a fulsome debate, because we have lots of these amendments. Perhaps, then, we'll get into the specifics of why one is different from the general theme, but it was well done on everybody's side. Thank you.

[Tony Clement]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I always love to heap praise on people.

[Tony Clement]

I'm blushing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

When you can do it on all sides, it shows the excellent non-partisanship of this committee.

We're going to have a vote on CPC-1 now.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 6 agreed to)

(On clause 7)

We move to clause 7. Again, amendment X-3 is no longer valid, so we move to CPC-2.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is again an amendment to de-hybridize and return what is presently a serious indictable offence under the Criminal Code, namely forgery of or uttering a forged passport.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Is there anyone wishing to intervene on that point?

[Tony Clement]

Mr. Chair, I would also agree with my colleague Mr. Cooper that this should remain a solely indictable offence. This is a very serious activity, which has been connected, of course, with terrorism, with organized crime, with people who seek to do violence against other people. To have this offence as one that could conceivably be prosecuted under summary conviction, I believe, offends the common sense of the people of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

I saw Mr. Fraser and, I think, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You go first.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

With respect to Mr. Clement's point about giving examples of ways that this offence could be committed, the Crown will have the discretion to make those determinations, which it makes all the time on hybrid cases right now, in order to proceed by indictment where it seeks the higher penalty that those circumstances, those offences, merit.

This is, really, to give credence to Mr. Clement's point, because this offence can be committed in a number of ways, in a whole range of ways, some far more serious than others. That is actually reflecting the point that this should be hybridized to allow the Crown that discretion and flexibility in proceeding on the circumstances of the offence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We'll have Ms. Khalid and then Mr. Clement.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I completely agree with Mr. Fraser here. I do understand that in September 2017, provinces, territories and the federal government did come to an agreement to support hybridizing all straight indictable offences that are punishable by a maximum penalty of imprisonment of 10 years or less as an important way of reducing delays. I feel that an offence like this would really impede that collective agreement that everybody's come to in order to address the delay issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. Clement.

[Tony Clement]

Thank you. I do respect my honourable colleague's opinion, which is contrary to mine. I would only say in reply that while I respect Crowns as well, and they work very hard on behalf of the people of Canada, I believe these are the kinds of cases, and certainly this case is one in particular, for which rather than leaving that discretion to the Crowns, the Parliament should speak. Parliament should make it clear that, reflecting the views of Canadians and their interests and their security interests, this offence should remain indictable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Are there any further comments?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I just want to again say that moving this offence to hybridization does not mean that Canadians are less safe. It just gives a prosecutor more flexibility and discretion in terms of how to prosecute in the best way possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Those are great, great contrary opinions, and now we'll go to a vote on amendment CPC-2.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 7 agreed to)

(On clause 8)

Next we move to clause 8. We have amendment CPC-3.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is yet another amendment to de-hybridize another Criminal Code section—namely, the fraudulent use of certificate of citizenship. Again, that is a very serious criminal offence. It's something that is punishable by up to 10 years, and for good reason. Under Bill C-75 it would be reduced to the possibility of a mere fine. This would de-hybridize that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Are there any other comments on that one?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Next is X-4, another X amendment. I won't keep repeating this, but all the ones that change the sentencing are ruled not receivable at this point because of the way we left clause 319. I won't be dealing with them.

We have no other amendment to clause 8.

(Clause 8 agreed to)

(On clause 9)

For this clause we have amendment CPC-4.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Chair, this is another amendment to de-hybridize another serious offence in the Criminal Code. It pertains to offences in relation to military forces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Are there any other comments on that one?

Mr. Clement.

[Tony Clement]

I just want to add to Mr. Cooper's intervention and again appeal to my colleagues on the other side that these are very serious offences. They pertain to the ability of our nation to defend itself.

Certainly, in my opinion, we should not have this discretion in the hands of the Crown attorneys. They do a great job, but I think Parliament should speak on behalf of our citizens and say that these kinds of offences within and pertaining to military forces should be considered indictable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

In regard to hybridization in general, hybridization is not reflective of the seriousness of the offence. We're hybridizing extremely serious offences and less serious offences as well. It's really all about prosecutorial discretion.

In general, I'm in support of hybridization. There will be potentially some cases where I don't want them to be able to deal with a particular issue in provincial court, but in general, I think it's important to allow the Crown flexibility so that they can proceed by indictment if they need to but also avoid longer processes where a fit sentence would be in the summary conviction range.

I will oppose this amendment.