That's life.
Evidence of meeting #122 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parenting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #122 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parenting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Partner, Torkin Manes LLP, As an Individual
I think the dilemma always is that the programs that usually deal with mediation are dealt with by the provinces.
And yes, it would seem to me, among other things, that we need to consider—as we are lucky enough to have in Toronto—the provision of mediation programs that can be accessed, depending upon your means, at a low, medium or high rate. It is affiliated with the court. The judge can remind everyone that they can go out and access the mediation services that are available in the courthouse.
Unfortunately, obviously that is mostly within the province's domain, although there is, as I understand it, a funding package that relates to legal aid that comes from the federal government to the province. I understand that has been an issue of dispute for a number of years. Obviously if that envelope were larger, it might be something that might be available.
November 28th, 2018 / 4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
Ms. Guindon, sorry, but I don't understand French.
Please excuse me; I'll ask you my questions in English.
It's 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, so I'd like to keep my questions around family violence.
You spoke at length about the importance of family dispute resolution. Mr. Harvie indicated in his remarks that he is of the opinion that this type of dispute resolution should be mandatory before going into the courts.
When we're talking about domestic abuse and a family that is broken down because of this abuse, how does this form of dispute resolution impact those families, and especially children, as we're keeping in mind the best interests of the child?
Ms. Guindon, perhaps you want to go first, and then Mr. Harvie.
4:50 p.m.
Lawyer, Mediator, Arbitrator and Parental Coordinator, Société professionnelle Julie I. Guindon, As an Individual
Yes, and I will answer in English. Perhaps this will facilitate the time as well.
Family violence and ADR—or alternative dispute resolution—is somewhat controversial in a lot of ways, because there's a train of thought that says you shouldn't have ADR when there's violence, and another train of thought that says you should.
There are mechanisms, and I think that will depend on the facilitator or the mediator in a lot of ways, in the sense that there could be mechanisms in place to perhaps ensure the exchange between the parties and a negotiation between the parties. They could be in different rooms. It could be on different days. Something could be put in place to facilitate the exchange. This might be more difficult, more challenging for the facilitator, but that can happen, I believe.
One of us raised the point of the screening, and I believe that this is also very important. Having somebody who is specialized screen the parties beforehand can be very helpful in determining what type of environment can be put in place to perhaps facilitate the ADR. I'm thinking of, for example, an arbitration that is done within a very confined place. We have courtrooms that are very small as well, and the intimidation is right there, so we see it as well.
I think the important aspect depends a lot on the facilitator as well as on the mechanism that can facilitate the process without damaging the family even more, and most importantly without damaging the children even more. In some cases, it can be done by way of Skype in one room, and the other party may be present but not seen. We have to be mindful that sometimes there are probation orders, or some orders preventing contact.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Harvie, did you want to comment on this?
4:50 p.m.
Lawyer, Advisory Board Member, Huckvale LLP, National Self-Represented Litigants Project, As an Individual
Sure. The best way for me to respond to that is to describe the two scenarios in which that woman is going to find herself, and it's typically a woman in domestic abuse and domestic violence: Either she's going to be in a form of dispute mechanism that can be tailored and structured to be sensitive to her needs and the needs of the children or she's going to submit herself to a litigation process.
When I'm a litigation counsel and that unfortunate woman is in front of me as the opposing party, my job is not to be a nice guy. Unfortunately, what frequently happens in litigation is that this woman is going to be abused again. Her husband is going to be sitting beside me, and I'm going to be cross-examining her, and her situation is going to be very uncomfortable and relatively unconstrained by the judge, who needs to remain neutral.
On the other hand, when I do dispute resolutions as a collaborative lawyer, to be effective, my job is to be empathetic and understanding. In my opinion, that structure can be made, through different mechanisms that have been commented on by Ms. Guindon, to make her safe and to allow her to be heard in a way that's much less traumatic than the litigation process.
Even with domestic violence, I think special arrangements need to be made, but it's still a better process than saying, “Alternative dispute resolution doesn't work for you. Go into a courtroom and let the lawyers have at it.” That's my opinion.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
We've heard testimony before with respect to having mandatory screening in place to look for domestic violence, and you've spoken about the alternatives in terms of how to deal with domestic issues in the courtroom or out of the courtroom through alternative means.
Do we have the resources? Is our justice system equipped to deal with this more collaborative approach, to really provide that support to a person who's going through a really difficult time, not only in having to recover from domestic abuse but also in having to go through a process for the best interests of their children and also for themselves, and to separate themselves out of the situation?
4:55 p.m.
Prof. Nicholas Bala
I think that because of the underfunding of the family justice system—and many of you have already identified it—we don't have enough specifically trained judges and we certainly don't have enough counselling available for people. We don't have enough access to legal aid and we don't have enough access to mediation. You've heard a lot of that.
Indeed, many of the issues that are being raised in the questions are extremely important and very valid, and unless the resources are put there, we're not going to be able to address them. In that sense, I agree with some of the comments that have been made earlier. The legislation is progress; without the resources in place, we're not going to see nearly as much as we should in terms of protecting children.
On the question you ask, there's a tremendous amount of research about how children are affected by spousal violence, and that's an overlapping concern with a lot of this.
I'm sorry to have interrupted my colleagues.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Very, very quickly, I'll ask all four just to answer in one word.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
It's one word each. Do you believe that we should have mandatory screening for domestic abuse as part of the process or as part of this legislation, yes or no?
4:55 p.m.
Prof. Nicholas Bala
Yes—not to necessarily exclude people, but to get the information, for sure.
4:55 p.m.
Lawyer, Mediator, Arbitrator and Parental Coordinator, Société professionnelle Julie I. Guindon, As an Individual
I concur with that.
4:55 p.m.
Lawyer, Advisory Board Member, Huckvale LLP, National Self-Represented Litigants Project, As an Individual
Yes, but you need an infrastructure to respond to it.
4:55 p.m.
Partner, Torkin Manes LLP, As an Individual
That's correct. I agree with Mr. Harvie.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you. That was excellent, the way you all answered in one word or close to it.
I want to thank this panel of witnesses. Your testimony has been invaluable to us.
It was greatly appreciated by everyone.
I will call a brief recess and I will ask the people from the next panel to come forward. We'll start again in a couple of minutes.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
We are reconvening the meeting with our esteemed second panel of the day. It is a pleasure to be joined by teleconference from Fredericton by Professor Linda Neilson, who is a professor emerita at the University of New Brunswick.
Welcome, Professor. Can you hear me?
5 p.m.
Dr. Linda Neilson Professor Emerita, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Yes, I can. Thank you very much.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Perfect.
We're joined by the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children. Kathy Vandergrift, who is the president and chair of the board of directors, is here with us.
Welcome, Ms. Vandergrift.
5 p.m.
Kathy Vandergrift President and Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children
Thank you.