Evidence of meeting #129 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lisa Raitt  Milton, CPC
Michael Cooper  St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC
Pierre Poilievre  Carleton, CPC
Pierre Paul-Hus  Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC
Michael Barrett  Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cooper.

1:25 p.m.

Michael Cooper St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Let me, first of all, acknowledge your comments at the start of this meeting that we, as a justice committee, have worked well together. I have had the privilege of serving on this committee for the past three and a half years, and I can say that while we've had policy disagreements, we have worked well when we have studied issues each and every time. In fact, we've come back with unanimous reports. That's rather unusual, but I think it does speak to the fact that the members of this committee have integrity and have put aside partisan politics. Let me acknowledge that, but let me also say that this is not a partisan issue, inasmuch as what this issue relates to goes to the heart of the rule of law when we're talking about interference in an independent criminal prosecution, an attempt to potentially interfere with the independence of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, the PPSC.

While I agree with Mr. Fraser that Canadians deserve to be reassured, let me say that this motion put forward by Liberal member Mr. Boissonnault does little to reassure Canadians. For a Prime Minister who has talked about sunshine being the best disinfectant, I would have thought the members on this committee, the Liberal members, whom I respect, would have been eager to get on with sunshine so that we could hear as quickly as possible from witnesses who may be involved in political interference.

You asked, Mr. Chair, how we came to this point of an emergency meeting. We came here because when The Globe and Mail story broke, the most basic questions asked of this government related to this matter were not answered. Instead, we received non-answers. The Prime Minister's story, as Ms. Raitt outlined, has changed. He first of all denied the story completely. He then shifted to speaking about whether or not there had been direction. He then, just two days ago, said that the fact that Jody Wilson-Raybould remained in cabinet spoke for itself. We know that the first thing Minister Wilson-Raybould did in response was resign from cabinet.

This motion provides no assurance that we'll get answers any time soon. It contemplates a long-drawn-out process that I believe is intended to further cover up the serious issue at hand. It's rather interesting that so many of the key players are omitted from this motion, including the Prime Minister's Quebec adviser, as well as Gerald Butts, who met with SNC-Lavalin officials on matters that pertain to justice and legal matters. I don't think it's a coincidence that those individuals are omitted from this list.

I regret to say that the only conclusion I can draw is that there isn't an interest in getting to the bottom of this matter. I'm troubled by the fact that this motion would provide for an in camera meeting to discuss a potential list of witnesses. So much for openness. So much for transparency. So much for providing the opportunity for Canadians to hear the arguments about why certain individuals should be called.

If members of this committee object to Mr. Butts coming before this committee, they should make their case, and they should make it publicly, not behind closed doors.

The fact is, I think it's important that we talk a little bit about some of the facts in this situation, because I've been disappointed that members of this government have said, “Well, these are just general allegations.” Let's talk about what these allegations relate to.

They are supported by a number of key facts, starting with when, in October 2015, SNC-Lavalin indicated that they wished to enter into a deferred prosecution agreement. The only problem that SNC-Lavalin had was that there was no provision in the Criminal Code to allow for a deferred prosecution agreement. What did SNC-Lavalin do? Well, they proceeded to meet with officials at the highest levels of the PMO dozens and dozens of times. There were 14 meetings on legal and law enforcement issues—this from an engineering firm. What a coincidence.

What a further coincidence it was when the government snuck into the Budget Implementation Act substantive amendments to the Criminal Code relating to deferred prosecution agreements. There was no consultation held by Justice Canada. There was no meaningful consultation on the part of this committee. It was snuck in, in the hope that Canadians wouldn't know the difference.

Then, as we know, in October of this year the director of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada announced that they would not proceed to negotiate a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin. Immediately following that, the former attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, was fired at the first opportunity available to the Prime Minister. Then, of course, there were her comments about speaking truth to power and, of course, her decision to resign from cabinet altogether.

There are a lot of facts that underline these serious allegations. It speaks to the need for transparency and openness, something that this motion utterly fails to do. It needs to be defeated out of hand.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Next we have Ms. Khalid.

February 13th, 2019 / 1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Chair. I welcome the new members to the justice committee as we talk about this. I must say that I have a lot of issues with the speculation that Mr. Cooper has put forward in his remarks.

Mr. Chair, I really appreciate that you started off by assuring everybody how non-partisan and how cordial we have been able to act here as a committee. We are independent and have not been influenced in any way in what we are deliberating here today.

I would remind Mr. Cooper that the words of the motion do not limit the witness list to what is here proposed. These are, as the Chair said, the witnesses who have agreed to come forward. It's not a complete list of witnesses.

The way we've really conducted our committee over the past number of years has been to have discussions. In camera discussions are very normal in how we come up with our witness lists, so I really encourage my friends opposite to not make political hay out of this. Putting up our phone numbers on the Liberals' platforms and social media is really not the way to go. I think that amounts to bullying. We have been and continue to be a very independent committee, and I think the discussion today is really as independent as it gets.

I stand by the integrity of this committee. I know that in the past we have had many robust discussions about how we conduct ourselves, about the various bills and studies that have passed through this committee, and we've done well in how we've been able to have those discussions and to understand exactly what it is we're doing for Canadians. Absolutely, Canadians have a right to know how their government functions. Absolutely, we run on a platform and I, as the member for Mississauga—Erin Mills, absolutely agree that the government should be open and transparent, and we have been.

I think the motion before us today really speaks to how open and transparent we are. We're willing to look into this. We're willing to look into the relationship among the attorney general and the Prime Minister's Office and our colleagues in general. As we delve into this, I think we'll have a clear picture that Canadians really deserve to know what the nature of that relationship is. We, as a committee, have that duty and obligation, and I stand by my colleagues in making sure that Canadians have the right to know and will ensure that they do have that.

At the same time, I don't appreciate the political posturing that is going on here, the hay that is being created out of nothing. I would look forward to hearing what our permanent members of the justice committee have to say about witnesses and how we can come to a consensus as to how we move forward with this study and provide the clarification that Canadians deserve on this issue. I am very happy to support the motion that is before us today and I look forward to providing that clarification.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Ms. Khalid.

I would also point out as a factual matter that I don't recall one time over the last three years when we've agreed on our list of witnesses in anything but an in camera meeting. That is the normal course of this committee.

Mr. Cullen.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

While that may be true, Chair, this is obviously a unique situation. I think you'd agree that this isn't your typical committee study. I think even calling it a study.... This is clearly an investigation.

I was listening intently to Ms. Khalid's point. I think she might want to reconsider the expression about making a lot of hay out of nothing. Colleagues have expressed, the chair of this committee, certainly many, many legal experts, the former Liberal attorney general in Ontario...suggested that charges have been brought against Canadians for obstruction of justice with much less evidence than we already have in place today. I think the experience that Ms. Wilson-Raybould has gone through in the last week is not nothing. Also, there's the experience of watching the Prime Minister stand up in front of Canadians and say that there's nothing to see here and the proof he has is that Jody-Wilson Raybould is still in cabinet, but less than 24 hours later, his proof evaporates.

Ms. Wilson-Raybould has not only left cabinet, but there's the spectacle of the Prime Minister referring to her in the first person while referring to male colleagues with their legal titles. I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague Ms. Raitt. I thought that spectacle was unbecoming of a prime minister, frankly, towards a woman who has held herself with some great integrity. I think the comments of Minister Philpott would do much better on this government than those by the Prime Minister himself.

Now, to this, we've actually made some suggestions that I have not heard any of my Liberal colleagues respond to. They just say they're going to support this. I'm sure my friends would like to reassure Canadians. We can't reassure Canadians, because we don't know what happened here yet. To suggest that we can reassure them, reassure them, and reassure them with this motion is to suggest that there's nothing to find. I would humbly submit that the last week, or less than a week, has told us that there's clearly something here. There are the most grave allegations, as the chair himself and others have commented on.

We keep talking about the Shawcross principle. I think it would be helpful for those trying to follow along to know what we're talking about. It is not the “Shawshank” principle, as some on Twitter have referred to it, once again confirming that that particular site isn't always great for information. It's about the role of the attorney general and particularly independence. I think it bears some understanding as to why I'm going to make a suggestion that we include more witnesses than the Liberals have put forward so far. I'd like to make a second suggestion as to the limitation of how deep we go into the weeds on some of these other legal principles.

The Shawcross principle on attorney general independence states that cabinet consultation is as follows:

confined to informing him [or her] of particular considerations, which might affect his [or her] own decision, and does not consist, and must not consist in telling him [or her] what that decision ought to be. The responsibility for the eventual decision rests with the Attorney-General, and he [or she] is not to be put, and is not put, under pressure by his [or her] colleagues in the matter.

This is what we're talking about. This is the fundamental thing. I understand that some committees often don't include all of their witnesses, but we've started. We've started naming some witnesses that Liberals, through your words, Chair, have reached out to. The first three you've mentioned here are also three who appeared on the Conservatives' list.

We have to include an invitation for Ms. Wilson-Raybould to speak. It baffles me that this isn't the most obvious thing in this entire conversation. Now, whether she chooses to or not.... We can't subpoena her, of course, nor would we. She has the privilege that's extended to all of us to not appear. She's also getting the highest-quality advice on that. Also on those allegations that have been brought forward, the principal secretary to the Prime Minister seems to also be an obvious witness who must testify, and so too does the senior adviser to the Prime Minister, Monsieur Bouchard.

It might be unusual, Chair. These might not be the precedents normally taken by the committee. This entire thing is unusual. This is not of the opposition parties' doing. This is a story that first came to us through Mr. Fife's reporting in The Globe and Mail. I don't want to call this a scandal yet, because that infers guilt and we're not there yet, but what I've often experienced is that it's not just the act itself; it's the attempt to cover up the act that Canadians so often find infuriating in our politics.

If the committee is sincere about reassuring Canadians that the system is working—that this system is working—then respond to some of the suggestions we've made as opposition parties. If collegiality and consensus-based decision-making are at interest here, we've made some suggestions.

I have put three extra witnesses forward. I haven't heard my Liberal colleagues respond to that.

Second is that if we are going to look at sub judice and if we are going to look at the Shawcross principle, we commit a day or a meeting, at your discretion, which the committee agrees to, to look at those.

My point is to put some time limitation on that. One could spend their entire legal career studying Shawcross if they wanted to. That's not helpful to anybody and it's not helpful to Canadians in understanding that.

I think if we are seeking to actually reassure Canadians, we can't reassure them on the outcome. This isn't making hay out of nothing. That's a mischaracterization of everything we've seen here so far.

I respect my colleagues. You're under a lot of pressure. None other than the Attorney General of Canada went on television this weekend and told you there is nothing to see here. That's unfortunate. I sympathize with the pressure you're under. As you've also said, your duty is to Canadians, not to the Prime Minister's Office, nor to the Attorney General.

We can come and collaborate on this. I think inviting Ms. Wilson-Raybould, the principal secretary, and at least the senior adviser to the Prime Minister, Monsieur Bouchard, seems obvious to everybody looking at this case. Why it wouldn't be obvious to all members on this committee is perplexing to me, and I think would invite the allegations of an attempt to limit and cover up what is actually happening here. My Liberal colleagues haven't said that in so many words, but I am sure that an interest they share with us is that Canadians do feel reassured that we're getting at this, understanding all the limitations we're faced with, with so many trials taking place.

The central argument, though, is that a very well-connected international company was able to lobby and successfully secure a change to our Criminal Code. It was placed into the very last pages of a 535-page omnibus bill. There are now allegations that the measure was then pushed upon the former attorney general, and that perhaps when she resisted she was fired. The Prime Minister then said that they were all on the same page and the evidence was that she was still in his cabinet. The next day she quit. If anyone wants to say that's not concerning to them, boy oh boy, they're living in another reality than the one I occupy.

I think we owe it to Canadians to do this, to consider the three extra witnesses that have been proposed, and to consider the suggestion to limit the study of these other legal principles so we don't go on some fishing expedition.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Are you putting that forward as a formal amendment right now or are you putting it forward for discussion?

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Let's put that as a formal amendment, Chair, because folks aren't commenting on the suggestion from the opposition.

What we've heard so far is that the Liberals put forward a motion and the Conservatives have said they're going to reject it out of hand.

I'm wondering if there is a potential to combine the key elements, because the core differences are that there is not a limitation on the study, and that the witness list prescribed by the Liberal motion is very limited.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Perhaps I could make a suggestion, Mr. Cullen, because we have other people who haven't intervened yet.

Can I come back to your amendment when we get to the end of the people who have asked to speak here? We will then come back and put your amendment as the next item, and while you have the time, maybe you'd like to draft it.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

That's very sage counsel.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Perfect.

We now have Mr. Poilievre.

1:45 p.m.

Pierre Poilievre Carleton, CPC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The members across the way keep talking about innuendo, so let's go back to the agreed-upon facts and list them in chronological order.

Fact: The Prime Minister slipped into an omnibus budget an amendment to the Criminal Code, allowing large-scale corporate criminals to escape conviction and trial by signing a deal.

Fact: That legislation was not introduced by the justice minister even though it amended the Criminal Code, which is the purview of that minister.

Fact: This committee had no role in studying that legislation. It went to the finance committee, something that should concern you, Mr. Chair, and all members of this committee.

Fact: After that legislation became law, the director of public prosecutions decided not to offer a deal to SNC-Lavalin, which is charged with over $100 million for bribery and fraud.

Fact: According to the lobbyists registry, the company changed its tune away from a legal approach to a political one, going to the PMO to seek political support to allow for a special side deal that would remove the possibility of conviction or trial for this 100 million dollars' worth of corruption.

Fact: Fourteen meetings happened in the Prime Minister's Office, including with PMO boss Gerald Butts.

Fact: Mr. Butts in December and the Prime Minister on another occasion spoke about such a special deal with the minister of justice and attorney general.

Fact: Not so long after that, the Prime Minister fired the attorney general and moved her to another portfolio. Apparently, the conversations with her didn't go so well.

Now, they say there's no political pressure: “Do something or you might lose your job, but, hey, no pressure. Please make your own decision.”

Since that time, the Prime Minister has gone out publicly and claimed that he had assurances from his former attorney general that he had told her the decision was entirely hers. After he made that public declaration, something caused her to resign—apparently no longer able to remain part of the Trudeau cabinet—so he attacked her. He directly attacked her by saying it was her job to stop wrongdoing from happening in his office. What is most despicable and cowardly about this attack is that he was attacking someone who is legally incapable of defending herself. She believes she is subject to solicitor-client privilege. In other words, she can't fight back. She can't speak.

There's one person who could allow her to speak, of course. That is the Prime Minister. You would think that a man who attacks someone in public would want to allow that person to respond, but so far, he has used his power of privilege to silence her. And the members across the way talk about bullying.

It's time that we let her speak. Isn't it interesting that this motion the government has put forward does not include her name? It does not—

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

The government did not put forward the motion, Mr. Poilievre. The motion came forward from people who are Liberal members of this committee. I have to correct you on that. I would have corrected you on multiple other points, but I'm trying to restrain myself.

1:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

Sure. You actually said “we” put it forward, so I presume that you're speaking with the rest of the “we” over there, but the reality is—

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I mean the Liberal MPs on the committee. You haven't been to the committee before, so obviously I know that.

1:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

I appreciate that you're getting very defensive, Mr. Chair.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Your intervention is—

1:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

I appreciate that you're getting very defensive, and I don't blame you because, frankly—

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Our committee gets along very well, sir. Your interventions are, at this point, just a little much. I will restrain myself at this point.

1:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

I welcome that restraint.

Mr. Chair, the reality is that this motion excludes the key actors. It prevents them from speaking. It does not include former attorney general Jody-Wilson Raybould. It does not include Gerald Butts. It does not include Katie Telford.

The single meeting the motion allows or identifies is in camera. For those listeners who don't know what that means, it means in secret: no media, no transcripts, no public information, nothing. Total silence. And for what? It is the promise that we might be allowed to have a legal symposium about some theoretical principles which, while they might be important to the overall case, do not speak to the facts in this particular situation. That is what we are here to discuss. We're not randomly picking one of the many thousands of legal principles that have been debated in law schools by scholars for many years; we are talking about a specific case. For us to know the answer to that case, we need to have the key players.

I'm calling on the government to amend its motion to include all the witnesses the Conservatives have put forward so that all the truth and all the facts become known by Canadians. If the government has nothing to hide, it will allow these witnesses to be added and for examination of their testimony to proceed without any further delay.

Thank you very much.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

We now have Mr. Boissonnault.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Chair, I think it's important to remind colleagues and Canadians that the Ethics Commissioner is undertaking a probe of this matter. The role of the justice committee is not as an investigative body. I think today's testimony and comments, particularly from the Conservative opposition, demonstrate that, at best, committees of the House of Commons are political theatre that can occasionally achieve good studies. We don't have the tools, the budget or the mechanism to go through the fishing expedition and the kind of witch hunt the Conservatives would like to see.

Let's be clear. The Ethics Commissioner is looking at these issues. That is the impartial body of the Parliament of Canada empowered to look into these matters. Our job is to take a look at issues that will shine a light on exactly what is appropriate behaviour. Quite frankly, it's completely legitimate for the attorney general's office to have conversations with government colleagues about legal matters. The Shawcross doctrine, as Mr. Cullen quite rightly read out, provides very clear parameters for that.

Let's understand what remediation agreements are. I can state that the reason we made a change to the Criminal Code to deal with remediation agreements was to harmonize with our trading partners. The other side is engaging in rank speculation as to why we would make a change to our laws, when the United States has had remediation agreements, called deferred prosecution agreements, since 1999. The United Kingdom has had deferred prosecution agreements since 2014. Australia is studying deferred prosecution agreements now. This is a normal course of business with trading partners around the world. For the other side to engage in some sort of rank amateur speculation that somehow one corporation is going to move the Government of Canada to change our laws is specious. Quite frankly, it's not parliamentary.

Our job here is to help Canadians understand remediation agreements, to look at the Shawcross doctrine and to have these three people on this witness list come.

To my colleagues across the way, it is completely legitimate for this committee to have a conversation about the witness list. To Mr. Cullen's point, we are going to have meetings, but we want to discuss next week the number of meetings and the witnesses we would have come forward. Quite frankly, to your point about Ms. Wilson Raybould, she can't speak. Colleagues here know that she can't speak about her time as the former attorney general. She has invoked solicitor-client privilege, and she has one of the best lawyers in the land advising her. To have her come before this committee would be to invite her to speak about things that she simply cannot talk about. I think it's important for Canadians to understand that as well.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

1:55 p.m.

Pierre Paul-Hus Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, my colleague said that the Conservatives are on a witch hunt, and I would like to answer him that in this case, the truth lies beyond any sort of partisanship. We aren't interested in a witch hunt. The story was published in The Globe and Mail, and new facts have been accumulating daily since.

That said, the Liberal motion states that three people are ready to testify. I'd like to know who asked the Attorney General of Canada and the other witnesses to come and testify.

I'd also like to remind the members that we live in a country that is subject to the rule of law. Canadians who are listening to us right now must understand that this is a very worrisome situation. The objective is to find out whether there was political interference by anyone in the Prime Minister's Office in the functions of the former attorney general of Canada.

There is something I find quite disappointing. We had a motion at the ready. It was tabled when the request was made for the committee to meet. However, by using committee procedures, the Liberals managed to introduce the motion we are discussing at this time. This motion is a kind of law class. They want to explain to us how things work. I thank my NDP colleague for the excerpts he read to us to explain the Shawcross doctrine. We don't need a law class. I think that through these actions, the members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights are being treated like fools.

We really need to get to the heart of the matter. The process being used by the Liberal members of the committee proves that they want to cover up the situation. That is clearly what is going on. For our part, all we want is to shed light on the events. As I said, it was The Globe and Mail that published an article on this situation, which, as we can see, is getting worse day by day.

I think that in the interest of all Canadians and of justice, the committee should go back to the motion that was tabled by the Conservatives and supported by the New Democrats.

Thank you.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Paul-Hus.

I'd like to inform everyone that the number of Conservative members is higher than usual, because there are two witnesses. They are not members of the committee, but they have the right to speak. There are actually three Conservative committee members, not five. As a courtesy, we give guests the right to speak. We will also grant Mr. Rhéal Fortin that right if he requests it.