Evidence of meeting #135 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Cooper  St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC
Michael Barrett  Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

The answer is no, but I could endeavour to think further about this. It's not that I haven't had conversations with the Clerk of the Privy Council one-on-one. I did have a conversation with him on September 19 one-on-one in my office. I've known the Clerk for many years, and throughout the course of my being a minister, we have had the opportunity to have conversations, but a direct conversation or a direct meeting is something that wasn't very regular.

6:15 p.m.

St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC

Michael Cooper

Thank you for that.

In your opening statement, you characterized the meeting by stating that “I was having thoughts of the Saturday night massacre”. Can you elaborate on that?

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Well, I'll give a bit of a Wikipedia version of the Saturday night massacre. Perhaps people know what that is.

The Saturday night massacre is something that's commonly referenced in and around former president Richard Nixon when he, in the early seventies, asked his then attorney general to dispense of a special prosecutor. The attorney general said “no” and resigned. The then president then asked his deputy attorney general to do the same thing, and that person resigned, so it's commonly referred to as the “Saturday night massacre”. Anybody can look it up.

Having said that to the Clerk, I obviously was having thoughts about what was happening and the potential for direction coming to me from the Prime Minister and my having to consider resigning.

6:15 p.m.

St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC

Michael Cooper

Then it was certainly a little more than—

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Cooper, last question.

6:15 p.m.

St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC

Michael Cooper

I will just make the comment that it was a little more than the Clerk just checking in with you, as he characterized it.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

The Clerk was checking in with me on SNC and deferred prosecution agreements.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

We now go to the NDP for three minutes.

Mr. Angus.

February 27th, 2019 / 6:15 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould. I'm very honoured to be sitting at this table today, because what I feel we've witnessed is not politics; we've witnessed a lesson in integrity. I think the testimony you gave today will be studied in schools for decades to come, and Canada will be a better place for it. The greatest thing we can ask of any public official is to speak truth to power, and I really noticed that in your resignation statement.

I have a very short period for questions. I just want to make sure I understand the frame correctly. It seems that what we heard today is a sustained and constant attempt by very powerful actors in the Prime Minister’s Office who are obligated to uphold justice and the rule of law yet attempted to interfere with the practice of the rule of law. Would that be a correct assumption from the testimony you have provided to us?

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Thanks for the comments and the question. Again, I know that there was a consistent and sustained effort to attempt to politically interfere with my role as the Attorney General.

I really want to say this, and I'll be brief. I do not want members of this committee or Canadians to think that the integrity of our institutions has somehow evaporated. The integrity of our justice system, the integrity of the director of public prosecutions and prosecutors, is intact. So I don't want to create fear that this is not the case. It is incumbent upon all of us to uphold our institutions and to uphold the rule of law. That's why I'm here.

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I thank you for that, because I was really shocked when I read the testimony that you provided recording...for Mr. Wernick, the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is obligated to be the non-partisan voice of the civil service. He said, “I think he”—that would be the Prime Minister—“is going to find a way to get it done, one way or another....he is in that kind of mood, and I wanted you to be aware of it.” Then you referenced the Richard Nixon firing of the special prosecutor as a side issue.

Would you take from this, that “he is in that kind of mood, and I wanted you to be aware of it”, that you were being given a direct threat regarding the Prime Minister?

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I believe there were three occasions in that conversation where there was a veiled threat.

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Okay. Thank you.

I only have a few seconds left, but I have heard my Liberal colleagues today say: Why didn't you resign? Why didn't you raise this as though...it was your responsibility? And then why you did not get outside advice to help you change your mind?

I'm really pleased that you say that these were attempts to obstruct and to interfere with justice but that the justice system is intact.

My question to you is this. Are you worried that the Prime Minister's Office was seeing the role of the justice minister as a figurehead that could be moved around, could be changed or interfered with, based on the partisan or political needs of the moment?

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I'm not going to speculate on the considerations in the Prime Minister's Office, or the opinions.

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Fair enough.

I just want to say, Mr. Chair—

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

You've exhausted your—

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

—I just—

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Angus, you've exhausted—

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

—I want to move a motion—

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Angus, you have exhausted your time.

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

—that the committee calls on the Prime Minister

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Angus, you have exhausted your time. You don't have the floor.

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I'm moving a motion.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I think I had passed on. What—

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Sorry; I'm moving a motion, Chair.