Evidence of meeting #135 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Right.
Did your department at the time have any input into the discussion around changing the integrity regime, which was out of Public Works? Was your department involved in that as well?
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I can't be precise on the number of conversations that were had, but certainly Minister Qualtrough was involved in the integrity regime. My department worked with hers around consultations, but the extent of that.... I know that it was not a Department of Justice lead. It was the lead of the PPSC.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
There's a last question that I have for you. Out of all of the lobbying that happened on this, including, admittedly, with our party—SNC went in to talk to everybody, and I believe my colleagues as well were spoken to by SNC—I don't see your name on the list of those who were lobbied. Were there any requests made by the lobbyists at SNC to come in and visit you to talk about the issue of deferred prosecution agreements, given that you were the only one who could change the Criminal Code?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Wilson-Raybould, I really do appreciate you emphasizing that our system is intact and that there is a lot of integrity in our judicial system. I know that after today's hearing there are going to be those concerns raised, and you and the Clerk of the Privy Council have testified to that.
What I want to get into a little bit is that issue of responsibility that you had in your role as Attorney General. I think that at some point in November it seemed like you had enough contacts made and your mind was made up. If you felt the issue was so serious, why did you not resign or pick up the phone and really have that serious conversation with the Prime Minister at that point?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Well, I made up my mind in September, and I articulated that to the Prime Minister. I felt no compulsion to resign, because I was doing my job as the Attorney General. I had made a decision around my discretion and exercising it with respect to issuing a directive or taking over a prosecution around SNC and the deferred prosecution agreement, so—
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Okay. How about on January 7? You said you had a conversation with the Prime Minister about changing your portfolio to Veterans Affairs. At that time, did you bring up your concern to the Prime Minister about what you felt the reasoning was for the change?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Okay, but you still took it on, knowing what you had known and feeling what you had been feeling.... If interference was happening, if the pressure was so serious.... You have justified just now that the reason you resigned later on is not that you did not have confidence necessarily in the Prime Minister—or you wouldn't put it that way—but that you didn't have confidence in being at the cabinet table. Why was that decision made then and not at the time that you were offered Veterans Affairs?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I can't talk any further about my resignation or any conversations or how I felt, because that's not covered in the OIC waiver that's been provided to the committee.
I did reflect, while I was still the Minister of Justice and Attorney General beyond December 19, and up to and including January 14, about my role and about my concern and my uncertainty around whether or not the government or the incoming Attorney General—I didn't know who that was at the time, and that's irrelevant—would enter into a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC.
As I said, if I had seen a notice—which is required—in the Gazette around a directive, I would have immediately resigned upon seeing that.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
You bring up the Saturday night massacre. We've had other Attorneys General who faced challenges—a specific one in B.C., Brian Smith—and, in their role, they felt their responsibility was to resign at that point. Did you not see it as your responsibility to resign if the issue was so serious?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
At the time, I did not see it as my responsibility to resign. I saw myself as the Attorney General of the country who was doing her job to ensure and uphold the independence of the prosecutor and uphold the integrity of the justice system and the rule of law.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
On November 4, you had your three-year anniversary of being sworn in. You put up a Twitter post thanking the Prime Minister and saying what an honour it was to be in this role. You also posted your oath to the Privy Council, and within that oath it said, “I will in all things to be treated, debated and resolved in Privy Council, faithfully, honestly and truly declare my mind and my opinion.” This is an oath you took and the Prime Minister also took.
In my mind, when I think about the conversations—I've never been there—around the cabinet table, I would think that, as colleagues, you guys would have open discussions about the interests and acting on different files, making decisions, and the Prime Minister would be open and completely honest, just as you would be to him, about what was happening.
In this regard, I feel like you had held back in your position, even though the Prime Minister had mentioned, on several occasions, his concern about the public interest, about the loss of jobs.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I can, without equivocation, say that I did not hold back as the Attorney General in this case. More broadly than that, as the Attorney General and also as the Minister of Justice, I always felt it appropriate to raise concerns, to engage in discussions and debate, and always speak, as I've said, my truth to power. I did that. In this particular case, I was entirely comfortable on September 17 questioning the Prime Minister on whether or not he was politically interfering with SNC and DPAs.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
And he said no. So did you believe him at that point, because on January 14, you took on a new role in another ministry?
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
As I said, I took him at his word. I took him at his word after I directly questioned him in September, and I took him at his word after I directly questioned him and Gerry Butts in January. I chose to take them at their word.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
And so, on January 14, you also had faith and belief that there was no interference and that's why you carried on with taking on a new role?
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
I had serious concerns about it, but again, I took the Prime Minister at his word.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you.
We're going to Mr. Cullen.
I want to advise everyone that the NDP has advised me that they have a motion they wish to put forward. After we finish the rounds of questions and we have no more questions, I will allow the NDP representative, Mr. Rankin, to put forward the motion.
Mr. Cullen, the floor is yours.
6:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you Ms. Wilson-Raybould, not only for your testimony but also for your endurance today, as we've gone on for some time.
Regarding the directive you talked about, Ms. Raitt mentioned how rare it was and how unique. Can you say, again, that it has never been used in a specific case? Was that your testimony here today, that an Attorney General has never used this specific directive on a specific case, as in the case of SNC-Lavalin? Is that right?
6:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
So not only is this tool incredibly rare, it has never been applied in the way that was being suggested by the Clerk of the Privy Council and all the other people who consistently lobbied you to use that tool. They were asking you to do something essentially historic.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
An Attorney General has never issued a specific directive in a specific prosecution, nor has an Attorney General in this country ever issued a directive—sorry—taken over a prosecution. It would be historic—for the first time.