Evidence of meeting #145 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treatment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much.
Mr. Shime, you mentioned in your presentation that the committee should recommend or come up with some mechanism in order to review past convictions and right those past wrongs of people who perhaps with today's hindsight shouldn't have been put through the criminal process.
What mechanism do you think we should recommend?
9:35 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Well Mr. Cooper has read all the cases, and maybe he could assist.
9:35 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes.
In the past, in Ontario, for example, when there have been concerns about miscarriages of justice, public inquiries have been struck under the Public Inquiries Act. I'm not sure one needs to go so broad, but one could easily strike a committee.
In Ottawa, as you all may know, there is already a criminal conviction review committee that looks at cases. It is a cumbersome and lengthy process, which is—if I can put a plug in—severely under-resourced. It should have greater resourcing by this government, which should have concerns about the history of wrongful convictions in this country.
One could certainly enact an ad hoc review committee that would be open to hearing from individuals who have been jailed, and/or community groups, where there are concerns about individual cases and whether those convictions were justified or were miscarriages of justice, based not only on the science we may have understood at the time, which to be fair has on occasion been misinterpreted by...whether it be juries or even judges, but based on our current understanding of the science.
When the Ontario government needed to look at pediatric deaths and concerns about wrongful convictions in relation to shaken baby syndrome and what that meant, again they struck a public inquiry. I don't think that's necessary here. However, one of the things they did was to examine all those historical convictions through the lens of the current science of shaken baby syndrome and what we understood, and how properly applied, the science should have directed the outcome. As a result, a number of those cases were referred to the Ontario Court of Appeal and were reviewed either by the Court of Appeal or other courts.
Certainly the striking of a committee that could review specifically these convictions involving perhaps former judges and/or lawyers, I think would be a welcome step in that direction. I know Mr. Peck has thought about this as well, so he may have some thoughts.
9:35 a.m.
Executive Director and Lawyer, HIV & AIDS Legal Clinic Ontario
We're in touch with some people who, from our perspective, have been wrongfully convicted. Ultimately, we do urge deep consideration of this.
April 30th, 2019 / 9:35 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
I particularly want to thank Mr. Peck, as a gay man of a certain age, for reminding people that there are some positive things here to work on. I think that's very important. It also helps attack stigmatization, by noting those positive things we've done. I do include the directive in that case, even though it's narrow.
Now, of course, as a gay man of a certain age, I'm always impatient with our response to HIV/AIDS. I've said before in this committee that I'm glad we're doing these hearings. My concern is that we're doing them late in the Parliament. It's important that the initiative coming out of these hearings not be lost over an election period, and that we continue this work.
Having said all that as a kind of preface, I want to go back to something that was raised indirectly a few times in the presentations. This is the justice committee. I'd like to be talking about various forms of testing, but this is probably not the forum for that, except with regard to criminalization as a barrier. All of you, or almost all of you, mentioned other barriers in the criminal justice system to combatting the HIV/AIDS epidemic. I want to go back to Dr. Mercure. You talked in particular about criminalization of sex work. Can you talk more about other aspects of using the criminal law in ways that inhibit our ability to address this crisis?
9:40 a.m.
Member, Montréal sans sida
The directive rightly points out that those from backgrounds most affected by HIV are also the most marginalized. They are the same populations that are most affected by criminal law enforcement. So any measure that public authorities may take that disproportionally affects those who are more affected by HIV will have an adverse effect on the prevention of the disease. I could give you many examples: the criminalization of sex work or drug use, in which people are stigmatized more and in which their access to prevention and treatment services is negatively affected.
More broadly, public authorities have a major presence in the lives of marginalized people living with HIV. That often means that they find that their care is interrupted, that they are incarcerated or in court. They may also live a precarious existence that can have a negative impact on their relationship with their treatment team, their consistency of treatment and their ability to take the precautions necessary to prevent HIV.
Any activity that leads to those vulnerable to HIV being over-exposed to the court system will, without doubt, have a negative impact on public health efforts in prevention.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Would you say we should include a recommendation on decriminalization of sex work, and decriminalization of other drugs, as a way to combat HIV/AIDS?
9:40 a.m.
Member, Montréal sans sida
Yes, that would be one of a series of measures that would ultimately lead to advances in HIV prevention. That question absolutely must be asked.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I'm going to throw the question to any of the other witnesses, maybe starting with Dr. Bogoch.
9:40 a.m.
Physician and Scientist, Toronto General Hospital and University of Toronto, As an Individual
I certainly would like to echo those last statements. The criminalization of HIV permeates multiple aspects of the Criminal Code, and then there are additional issues, such as criminalization of sex work and drug consumption. Again, we're working with many individuals affected by these who are already marginalized populations. They have a greater incidence of HIV.
The criminalization of these acts, and of HIV, forms greater barriers to getting people diagnosed, on appropriate treatment and in appropriate care. It also prevents preventative measures. These are all barriers, absolutely.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Peck or Mr. Shime may speak, in the interests of time.
9:40 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I echo the comments that have already been made. I don't think I have anything to add.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I expected you to maybe take a little more time on that one. I've been a long-time advocate of decriminalization of sex work, and also, since my days on city council, of decriminalizing small amounts of all drugs, as a way to treat these as health issues rather than criminal issues.
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director and Lawyer, HIV & AIDS Legal Clinic Ontario
We intervened in the Bedford matter at the Supreme Court of Canada. We did so for a number of reasons, but the HIV-related element is that people engaging in sex work, because of the punitive laws surrounding their work, are unable to negotiate safe sex. It puts them at further risk of acquiring HIV in addition to experiencing all sorts of violence. A number of arguments can be made in relation to both sex work and drug policy.
As we know, and I'm sure people around this table saw the numbers just yesterday, over 10,000 people have died over a very short period of time because of the poisoning crisis that is going on. Decriminalizing drugs will have much broader impacts beyond HIV.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
I want to respond, maybe uncharacteristically, to Mr. Garrison's comments. As a gay man not of a certain age—
9:40 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
—I have lived my whole time in the non-criminalized era, post-1969. I will say, look, I'm going to work very hard to come back and represent the citizens of Edmonton Centre and keep doing this work. I want to see that the LGBTQ2 secretariat has funding into the next mandate so that we can continue to do this work.
I want to thank you for your solidarity on these matters, Randall, and thank the whole committee for putting this issue on the table. I know I don't always agree with my Conservative colleagues, but when we can put the partisan issues to the side and focus on public health, at a justice committee, that tells me there's something in this Parliament that's working. Thank you.
Now I'll go to the witnesses here.
Dr. Mercure, I have a question for you that has never been brought up here. Do people have to know their HIV status before they can receive treatment for HIV?
9:45 a.m.
Member, Montréal sans sida
I am not sure I fully understand your question.
However, clearly someone who does not know his HIV status will not be receiving treatment for HIV. Yes, the first step in what we call the treatment cascade is to know one's HIV status.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Great.
Here is my second question.
We have heard that, here in Canada, 83% of people living with HIV know their HIV status. In Europe, however, it is 90% and more.
In your opinion, if changes were made to the Criminal Code to decriminalize the non-disclosure of HIV status, what percentage could we reach here in Canada?
9:45 a.m.
Member, Montréal sans sida
A huge amount can be done to improve access to, and the regularity of, screening.
I could not tell you what fraction can be attributed to the fact that it is criminalized, but that it one of the things that must be done. Clearly, that will make access to screening easier. Screening has to be made available in places where people need it. We also have to encourage regular screening.
People do not go to be screened for all kinds of reasons. But the reasons are more to do with the organization of the services. There is also the stigmatization factor, and the fear of knowing one's status. Any obstacle that can be removed will help us move closer to better knowledge of HIV status.
Unfortunately, no study comes to mind that would let me tell you how many people could find out their status if at least that legal barrier were lifted. Of course, it would be a step in the right direction for us in achieving our public health objectives; no doubt about that.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
In your opinion, in an average week, how many people are not ready to find out their HIV status because they are afraid of a trial?
