Evidence of meeting #19 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was respect.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William F. Pentney  Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Brian Saunders  Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada
George Dolhai  Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada
Kathleen Roussel  Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada
Marie-France Pelletier  Chief Administrator, Administrative Tribunals Support Service of Canada
Donald Piragoff  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I'd like to call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. We are studying the main estimates today.

I am delighted that we are joined by our Minister of Justice, Jody Wilson-Raybould. Thank you for coming, Minister Wilson-Raybould.

We are also joined by William Pentney, the deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general. Welcome, Mr. Pentney.

Also here is Donald Piragoff, the senior assistant deputy minister in the policy sector. Welcome, Mr. Piragoff.

I know that each of you is getting very familiar with coming before our committee. You're probably enjoying it more and more each time, and we're delighted about that.

I will turn the floor over to Minister Wilson-Raybould for her opening statement.

8:30 a.m.

Vancouver Granville B.C.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould LiberalMinister of Justice

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning everyone. Gilakas'la.

I want to start by acknowledging the territory of the Algonquin people. Certainly, I want to thank all members of the justice and human rights committee for the work that you have undertaken thus far and the agenda that you have in front of you.

I also want to acknowledge parliamentary secretaries Sean Casey and Bill Blair, who have been very helpful in assisting with respect to our mandate commitments and moving forward with them.

I am pleased to appear before the committee this morning to answer questions about the 2016-17 main estimates. As you indicated, Mr. Chair, I'm joined by Bill Pentney and Don Piragoff, who will also be able to answer the questions of committee members.

This past March, as you know, deputy minister Pentney attended a meeting of this very committee and discussed the supplementary estimates. I understand that at that meeting he provided an overview of the history and the mandates of the Department of Justice. Given that you are now already familiar with the business lines of the department, today I would like to talk to you about what I hope to accomplish in my role, and my vision for how the Department of Justice will help contribute to the vision of an improved justice system with funds presented in these 2016-17 main estimates.

Through the 2016-17 main estimates, the department requested a total budgetary authority of $678.9 million. This represents an increase of $4.99 million over the 2015-16 main estimates. Of this total authority, $400.5 million will be dedicated to ensuring a fair, relevant, and accessible Canadian justice system, one of the department's strategic outcomes.

Most of this funding is directed to the provinces and territories in support of the stewardship of the Canadian legal framework. In addition, as the primary legal services provider for the government, the department is seeking $199.6 million to continue to effectively support government programs.

Mr. Chairman, one of my primary roles is to ensure that there is respect for the rule of law and that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is upheld. This was a key part of my mandate letter from the Prime Minister.

Equally important to me is ensuring that all Canadians have access to a fair, modern, and efficient justice system. On March 21 the government revealed its spending plan for 2016-17, which contains measures that will help Canadians assert their rights and provide disadvantaged Canadians with access to our justice system.

To accomplish this, budget 2016 proposes to provide an additional $4 million per year to the aboriginal court worker program, which assists indigenous people moving through the criminal justice system to better understand their rights and the nature of the charges against them.

It also helps those involved in administering the criminal justice system to overcome language and cultural barriers when dealing with indigenous peoples and to better appreciate the socio-economic circumstances that they face.

In addition, the government plans to reinstate the court challenges program, which I know this committee is studying, and provide $12 million over five years in financial assistance to individuals and groups that wish to clarify their language and equality rights in Canada's courts. When combined with the existing federal investments, total funding would be $5 million annually.

Budget 2016 also provides $88 million over five years to increase funding in support of the provision of criminal legal aid in Canada, as well as $7.9 million over five years for the courts administration service to invest in information technology infrastructure upgrades to safeguard the efficiency of the federal court system.

Mr. Chairman, improving partnerships with provincial, territorial, and municipal governments, as stated in my mandate letter, is essential to deliver the real positive change that we promised Canadians. To that end, I met with my provincial and territorial justice and public safety colleagues in January of this year. I believe that that meeting has allowed us to establish the partnerships we will draw on over the coming months and years in order to create a meaningful difference in the lives of Canadians.

Canada's continued success absolutely depends on including multiple voices as we re-evaluate our approach to important legislative matters, such as marijuana legalization and regulation, reform of our criminal justice system, and, most recently, legislation to ensure that dying patients who are suffering intolerably from a serious medical condition would have the choice of medical assistance in death.

This work requires true partnership between the federal government and the provinces and territories, which can be achieved only by sitting down together and engaging in open and continuous dialogue, sharing our knowledge, and bringing a range of perspectives to the table.

However, perhaps the most challenging but most necessary area we need to focus on is rebuilding the nation-to-nation relationship that lies at the heart of Canada. The importance of this relationship to me and to this nation with respect to indigenous peoples cannot be overstated. As you know, this is a priority of our government, and we are working to find long-term solutions in full partnership with indigenous peoples as we develop a new framework for reconciliation based on recognition and respect.

Mr. Chairman, in Canada there is an unacceptable overrepresentation of indigenous women and girls who go missing or who have become victims of violence. In line with our commitment to launch a national inquiry into this matter, budget 2016 would allocate $40 million over two years to support this important work. Along with working with my colleagues on this inquiry, the Department of Justice, through its main estimates allocations for 2016-17, would be allocating $1.98 million to the government's action plan to address family violence and violent crimes against indigenous women and girls, as stated in the main estimates. By providing important support for projects to break cycles of violence and for culturally responsive victims services, this program will help make Canada more just and inclusive for indigenous peoples.

As a steward of Canada's justice system, I take my responsibilities and accountabilities in this role very seriously. As a government, we have begun to re-examine what we do, why we do it, and how we can measure success. We are identifying what is working, what is not working, and how we can best change it. The government intends to work in an open and transparent way with all of its partners to create an environment that will position us to achieve the best possible solutions on these and other issues that affect the lives of all Canadians. For example, as mentioned in budget 2016, there are plans for consultations on a framework for the legalization of marijuana, with special emphasis on how to keep marijuana out of the hands of children and youth.

My mandate letter also tasks me to review Canada's litigation strategy. As part of this review, we have already either discontinued appeals or are reconsidering the crown's position in many cases. This will ensure that the government's litigation positions are evidence- and principle-based, as well as consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, our commitments, and our values as Canadians.

Mr. Chairman, just to return to the subject of the 2016-17 main estimates, this funding will help our department continue to provide the funding to programs such as the victims Fund, the youth justice fund, and the aboriginal justice strategy, which fulfill our mandate to ensure a fair and accessible justice system for all Canadians.

Finally, the Department of Justice is investigating ways to be more efficient. This includes constantly reviewing the effectiveness of our own business practices and systems. I am pleased to report today that, through our ongoing legal services review, we have decreased our budgetary requests this year by $3.36 million.

Mr. Chairman, as I stated earlier, I am truly honoured to be Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada in this incredibly important period in our history and to do my part to give back to our country through public service.

By continuing to report on our progress and to demonstrate openness and transparency in this matter and others, my department is helping to contribute to improving our justice system. We believe this will lead to better collaboration, better government, and great success for Canada and Canadians.

I would like to conclude where I started, by thanking the members of this committee, recognizing that each member has expertise in particular areas and will contribute substantively to the discussion that takes place at this committee.

I would invite any questions or comments the committee members may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Minister, for your very clear overview.

We will go to the question period, and we'll start with the only person at the table who has been in your chair, Mr. Nicholson.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Does that mean to put pressure on me, Mr. Chairman?

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

It was for exactly that reason—

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm just checking, but—

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

—or empathy, one of the two.

May 17th, 2016 / 8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

That's right.

I'd like to welcome the minister.

Thank you for your opening comments. I know you will be well served by the Department of Justice. Like me and previous ministers here, you get great support in that role. They play a great part in assisting this country on so many different issues.

Welcome to the committee, and thank you as well, for talking in your opening remarks about the aboriginal court worker program. I raised this matter before. It was one of those programs that seemed to me to be of great value to people getting involved with the court system, in having people who have some insight into the challenges that some of these individuals have. I'm pleased that, I think you said, there's an increase of $4 million for that program. I know I've asked this before, and it's one of those that I hope you will continue to have, because the feedback on it is that it has been very helpful.

I'd like to raise one or two issues with you. You said in your opening comments that there will be an allocation accompanying the legalization of marijuana. I wonder whether you could clarify that. It's not the same thing, of course, as decriminalizing. I've heard comments that marijuana will be decriminalized, which means it could still be unlawful to have, but legalization is something slightly different.

I wonder whether you could clarify: is marijuana going to be legalized in this country, or just decriminalized?

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Well, thank you for the questions. I would like to acknowledge you also, as the predecessor in this role.

To the first point, acknowledging the work that the native court workers across the country continue to undertake, the $4 million a year is a top-up acknowledging the work that they do in assisting aboriginal access to justice.

I have a note here with respect to the court worker program. There are 176 court workers providing services to approximately 64,330 indigenous clients in 435 communities.

To your point with respect to our commitment on legalization of marijuana and strictly regulating access to marijuana, we are committed to ensuring that we take a comprehensive approach to the legalization, which would ensure that we decriminalize the use of marijuana while at the same time ensuring that we keep to our ultimate objective, which is to keep it out of the hands of children and keep the proceeds out of the hands of criminals.

I'm working with my colleagues, the Ministers of Health and Public Safety, and Parliamentary Secretary Blair, to ensure that we put in place a comprehensive framework that will provide the regulatory framework to ensure that we achieve our objectives.

These will go hand in hand. We are very much looking forward to launching a task force of experts, who will be engaged in providing recommendations around legalization and putting in place a regulatory framework with respect to marijuana. Those experts will include experts in the area of health, public safety, law enforcement, and justice.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much, and my best wishes to Parliamentary Secretary Blair for taking on this role. Thank you, sir, for that.

There is a program that has been in place since about 2009, the supporting families experiencing separation and divorce initiative. There's a decrease in its budget, and it appears it may be sunsetted.

It was one of those programs concerning which those of us who followed this had good reports. What has been the advice that you've been getting on it? Have you found that it's no longer effective? Why at this point in time would we be sunsetting something that up to now, I feel, has been very helpful?

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

In terms of funding the supporting families experiencing separation and divorce initiative, the Department of Justice continues to provide legal policy advice, litigation support, and family enforcement for these services with the funds currently available.

For example, as you likely know, with federal funding the government has been able to garnish $188 million in federal moneys to help satisfy family support obligations in 2015-16, all of this money ending up in the hands of families.

We feel strongly that Canadians living through separation and divorce need to continue to be supported, and we will be working to ensure that we find ways to continue this work and find ways to best meet the needs of families who are experiencing separation and divorce.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Again, the feedback on this is that it was helpful and answered some of the challenges we hear from people.

Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I congratulate you, because you finished at exactly 5:59 on your six minutes.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Well, you kept giving me the cut-off motion, so I was assuming that was telling me—

8:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Never, never.

Mr. Bittle.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thank you, Minister, for taking the time to answer some questions today.

The Federal Court has recently ruled that the current manner in which the department applies section 4.1 of the Department of Justice Act is constitutional, notwithstanding that the government has the right to revise the standard under which the section is applied.

Do you foresee any change in this respect?

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I think you're referencing the Schmidt case, which came down.

As all ministers of justice do, I take my responsibilities under section 4.1 of the Department of Justice Act very seriously in terms of providing reports on whether or not legislation that is introduced is in compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and we will continue to meet our reporting obligations.

In addition to that, I'll say as minister that when introducing government legislation, we have provided and will continue to provide an analysis or an explanatory paper about how legislation has been developed—as we have with respect to medical assistance in dying.

What I've instructed and what we are going to continue to do is ensure that as much as possible we provide explanations to Canadians about the thinking and considerations that have gone into legislation, as well as the considerations or risks in terms of the charter that may or may not exist with respect to a piece of legislation, and to invite parliamentarians certainly and Canadians into the conversation about public policy decisions and the reasons explaining why public policy decisions have been made.

That's a commitment we will continue to move forward on, not only with medical assistance in dying, but with other legislation that is going to be introduced in the very near future.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

How do you see restorative justice fitting into the criminal justice system review?

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

As all members know, I have been tasked by the Prime Minister to do a comprehensive review of the criminal justice system, including sentencing reform. We have been planning and continue to plan all aspects of that review.

Restorative justice is something that is a key priority for our department and for me, looking at ways in which we can take different approaches to the justice system and look at developing programs or support programs that are more successful in doing as much as we can.

One, for example, is reducing the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system. Another is looking at measures, such as drug treatment courts and community courts, that seek to limit what becomes, in many circumstances, a revolving door of people who present themselves into the criminal justice system, so as to develop off-ramps for people in the hope of ensuring that their first encounter with the criminal justice system is their last.

This is a community approach that we need to take. This is an approach we're committed to undertaking with the provinces, territories, and communities to ensure that we support innovative projects and measures that will look to restorative justice, but also initiatives that are preventative.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

The previous government introduced a number of mandatory minimum penalties in the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. The legal community and the courts have been vocal in their opposition to these changes, and I saw as a lawyer the delays that then permeated through the entire justice system.

What is your position on these types of penalties, and will you be looking at reversing some of these mandatory minimums? Will we see action on this?

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

The short answer is, yes.

A review of sentencing over the past 10 years is a key part of my mandate in the broader criminal justice system review. We will be looking at the mandatory minimum penalties that are in place in the Criminal Code. I will say that our government is not opposed to mandatory minimum penalties for the more serious crimes, but our review will ensure that we respect the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada and that we ensure that sentencing provisions are in compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This is an undertaking that is going to take a bit of time, but we are looking at being able to approach mandatory minimums potentially in incremental ways, so we can see some changes as we proceed through the course of our mandate.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Rankin.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you to Minister Wilson-Raybould. Thanks for coming back with your officials.

I want to ask about two or three things in the time available.

First, on marijuana possession, and building on Mr. Nicholson's question, we heard testimony on March 10 from the Public Prosecution Service that the government plans to spend $3 million to $4 million each year prosecuting charges of simple possession of marijuana. That's 2% to 3% of what the PPSC plans to spend overall for its program on the prosecution of drugs, the Criminal Code, and terrorism in the coming year.

At the same time, Justice Selkirk of the Ontario Court of Justice, in a case called Racine, refused to accept a guilty plea for the possession of marijuana. He said:

I recall distinctly the Prime Minister in the House of Commons saying it's going to be legalized. I'm not going to be the last judge in this country to convict somebody of simple possession of marijuana.... You can't have the Prime Minister announcing it's going to be legalized and then stand up and prosecute it. It just can't happen. It's a ludicrous situation, ludicrous.

Given these costs, the concerns expressed by our judges, and your government's intention to legalize marijuana, have you as a minister considered calling a halt to further prosecutions for simple possession of marijuana?

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Marijuana generally and its legalization have been subject of much conversation right across the country, including within the walls of this place.

As I said earlier, our government is committed to the legalization of marijuana and strictly regulating access to marijuana, with the ultimate objective of keeping it out of the hands of children and the proceeds out of the hands of criminals. With respect to decriminalizing marijuana right now, I think our Prime Minister has spoken very clearly about this, and doing so would not achieve our ultimate objectives, as I just described.

What we are committed to doing, in working with Parliamentary Secretary Blair, is taking our time to put in place the complex framework that is required; engaging with experts on a task force to provide recommendations; engaging with Canadians in this discussion, knowing that until such time as marijuana is legalized the current laws will continue to apply; and looking to law enforcement agencies to do—and I certainly respect what they do—the jobs they need to do in their various jurisdictions.