Evidence of meeting #24 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was non-state.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeanne Sarson  As an Individual
Linda MacDonald  As an Individual

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 21, 2016, we have before us an act to amend the Criminal Code regarding inflicting torture, Bill C-C-242.

I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome some members who are substituting this morning and haven't been with us before. Ms. Stubbs is here, and Mr. McCauley, Ms. Hardcastle, and Mr. Rusnak. It's nice to have all of you here. I'm sure you will very much enjoy our witness, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Fragiskatos, it's a pleasure to have you here as well, although you subbed on the committee before. We're very excited to hear from you on your bill. I'll invite you to make opening statements.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues.

It gives me great pleasure to appear before you today to formally address my private member's bill, Bill C-242, an act to amend the Criminal Code (inflicting torture).

It is humbling to see the bill reach the committee stage, and I would like to make clear from the outset that I am willing to enter into a dialogue that will make the bill stronger and more legally palatable from your perspective. As stated in the House of Commons earlier this spring, I am open to a range of amendments and encourage committee members to make any suggestions they believe will improve the bill.

Furthermore, should you require a clarification as to why I chose a certain direction, please do not hesitate to ask following my statement.

I am not an expert law-maker; however, I did a great deal of research and consulted widely prior to tabling the bill that has come before you today. I also taught human rights policy at the University of Western Ontario prior to becoming an MP. It was there that these sorts of issues were first encountered by me and inspired the bill. Part of my Ph.D. thesis also focused on issues of torture, hence my interest in the issue.

With that said, after being drawn ninth in the private member's bill lottery, I felt a responsibility to take advantage of this good fortune by putting forward a meaningful reform. I might have sought for a particular cause to be given special recognition or to have a forgotten historical event commemorated. Such initiatives certainly have their place, yet I felt the need to go in a different direction.

Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Thankfully, Canadian law does not ignore this principle. A torture offence exists in section 269.1 of our Criminal Code.

The problem, however, is that section 269.1 only applies to state officials. Examples include police or military personnel who might inflict severe pain repeatedly and over a prolonged period of time to intimidate or coerce as a way to extract information, or for some other purpose. Yet when the same actions are perpetrated by private individuals who have no tie to the state, the offence is usually called aggravated assault. As many as you are already aware, kidnapping is also applied as a charge, and assault with a weapon or forceable confinement are other possibilities as well.

Some detractors believe these charges are good enough. They believe that although torture committed in the private realm can happen, the problem is in fact exaggerated.

I would respond to that criticism by saying, tell that to those who have endured torture. I will only point to a few examples. There are many others that have occurred in recent years. The details, while difficult, are extremely important.

In 2006, a Calgary man was made to take off his clothes and had his hands and feet tied with cables. He was then left to hang from the ceiling joists while his torturers punched, cut, and whipped him with a belt before spraying him with butane. This happened over a period of days. Two individuals were found responsible. The first was a youth who could not be sentenced in adult court. The second pleaded guilty to assault with a weapon and received a two-year sentence for what amounts to an example of torture.

In 2008, a Brampton man had his toe cut off, was beaten with a bat, cut multiple times with salt rubbed in his wounds, and had a plastic bag put over his head. This took place over several hours and seems to have been done with the intention of obtaining information about a theft. The individual who carried out the action was found guilty of aggravated assault and forcible confinement and given a sentence of less than 10 years. The more appropriate word choice would have been “torture”, because that is exactly what took place. In fact, the judge used the word “torture” to describe the victim's experience.

In 2010, Dustin Paxton beat, starved, burned, and cut off the lip and part of the tongue of his victim in a well-known Alberta case. This seems to have happened for perhaps as long as two years. While a dangerous offender designation was assigned by the courts, Paxton was charged with aggravated and sexual assault, even though torture more properly captures what took place.

The need to call crimes what they are is not simply an academic matter. In order for victims to heal, their suffering must be acknowledged. This is a long-established human rights principle. Indeed, this lesson underlined the Truth and Reconciliation Commission process on residential schools. Using terms such as aggravated assault does not adequately speak to the grave human rights violations that have been committed.

Finally, some criticize the bill because it calls for a sentence of up to life imprisonment, while the existing state torture law only offers a maximum of 14 years. It is true that this is inconsistent and I believe strongly that a much stiffer sentence for acts of state torture is certainly warranted. However, I am also extremely open to suggestions and amendments to the specific sentence that would make the bill more legally responsible from your perspective. Thus, rather than aiming to do everything, and as a result accomplishing nothing, I placed my focus on a gap that has been almost completely disregarded by Canadian legislators until this point. I did so after consulting with victims, their families, and civil society organizations. I also worked through various drafts and continuously consulted with the Department of Justice.

The legislation was drafted by expert bureaucrats trained in the law. I value the support they provided, and the passion they show for their work each and every day. The world is shaded in grey, and so too is most legislation. Given a choice between ignoring an unjust status quo, or changing it imperfectly, I opted for the latter. Torturers aim to rob individuals of their dignity. They do so through the intentional and repeated infliction of severe pain, suffering, and humiliation over a prolonged period of time for the purpose of intimidation or coercion. These actions have no place in a free and open democratic society such as Canada.

Furthermore, it is true that torture, from an international legal perspective, has traditionally been understood as a state crime. I acknowledge that, I respect that, but add crucially, that the definition has indeed shifted. The committee against torture, which is responsible for monitoring the UN torture convention, has said that torture in the private sphere qualifies as torture. This view has been accepted by other states. The proposed legislation shares much in common with existing torture laws in Australia and France. Both countries, extremely important allies of Canada, have strong torture laws that apply to state and private actors. Canada should follow suit. Recognizing such a change would acknowledge the ordeal experienced by those who have suffered torture, and punish torturers accordingly. Cases of extreme violence and inhumane conduct have happened in Canada, and could take place again. It's time to act and make positive change happen.

With that said, in addition to receiving support from an abundant number of individuals, colleagues from various parties, and groups from across Canada, I would like to highlight a few truly significant national endorsements that Bill C-242 has received.

The Native Women's Association of Canada, the voice for indigenous women and girls in this country, has offered its full support of the bill. Amnesty International has committed its support, in principle, for what Bill C-242 is trying to achieve. They also firmly condemn torture in the private sphere.

The Canadian Nurses Association has endorsed the proposed legislation. The CNA is the national professional voice of nearly 139,000 registered nurses across Canada. The Canadian Federation of University Women, a non-partisan, equality-seeking, self-funded organization of close to 9,000 women in 112 clubs across Canada, has committed to being a fervent advocate for the proposed legislation. Its representatives are here today.

Furthermore, I would also like to thank the residents in my riding of London North Centre for their unwavering support. I have heard from my constituents and recognize their desire to see the proposed legislation succeed. The support of the London Abused Women's Centre, and its director Megan Walker, is extremely and sincerely appreciated, as is the support of the chief of police services in London, John Pare. I thank them both very much.

With that said, I would also like to commend Linda MacDonald and Jeanne Sarson, from Nova Scotia, who will appear before you shortly. These two women are staunch advocates for the inclusion of torture in the private sphere into the Criminal Code. They have worked for over two decades to advance this important cause—not just in Canada, by the way, but in the international domain as well.

Once again this is not a perfect piece of legislation, but then again I am not sure if any piece of legislation is ever perfect. However, I am open to any potential amendments suggested by this committee. This would include lowering the term of punishment.

It would be a sincere shame to have this important bill defeated because of concerns related to technicalities that could easily be altered. I ask my colleagues here today, when reviewing the bill, to ask yourselves the following questions. Do you believe that human rights matter? Do you believe torture has no place in our society because it robs individuals of their humanity and of their dignity? Do you believe the way to enhance public safety is not by building more jails, or through the politics of division and fear, but through enshrining human rights principles into the law and into our Criminal Code?

If you answered “yes” to these questions, then we must work together to ensure that Bill C-242 is strengthened and referred back to the House for further consideration.

To conclude, the bill is not about me. It has never been about me. I dedicated the bill to all victims of torture when I first put it forward, and that has not changed. To them I say, your voice matters. I have listened to you, and I am working and willing to do whatever is necessary to ensure the bill continues to progress.

Thank you very much, colleagues.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Fragiskatos, for your very passionate and coherent remarks.

Now we'll move to questions. We're going to do two rounds of questions. The first round is going to be started by Mr. Falk.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos, for coming to committee, and for the work that you've put into preparing the bill and presenting it. I think you've touched on something that is a very important issue and it's probably not lost on any of us.

When I look at the bill I have a lot of questions, and I don't know if you'll get a chance to answer all of them in this first round. First of all, have you had any personal experience yourself with torture?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

No, I have not. As I alluded to at the outset, I first became aware of this gap in the Criminal Code, the fact that acts of torture that are carried out in the private sphere are not recognized as torture in our law, when I was teaching human rights policy.

I certainly consulted with victims on this. You might wonder why victims aren't speaking. I think one of the reasons that victims have had difficulty coming forward is the experience. This experience is quite traumatizing, as you might well imagine. It's traumatizing and scarring. It's been very difficult for victims to come forward. I think when Jeanne and Linda speak, they will testify to that fact.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

The other thing I'm a little curious about is that you have cited several examples of instances where Canadians have experienced non-state torture, where they've been charged under our existing Criminal Code.

If your legislation had been in place, what difference would it have made in the sentencing, in your opinion? Would it have made a difference? Would the sentencing have been the same or would it have changed things? I don't see in your bill anywhere you're suggesting any minimums, but in fact at the moment you're suggesting a maximum life sentence. You have already identified that you're willing to consider that term as well.

In your opinion, what difference would it have made in the cases you cited?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I take my cue from victims. I take my cue from their experience. This is all a matter of perspective. In fact, I think it's safe to say that law is a matter of perspective, certainly when it comes to these sorts of difficult issues. The perspective that I bring to this is not the perspective of someone who taught human rights policy. It's not necessarily the perspective of an MP. It's the perspective of someone who takes very seriously the victim experience.

The philosopher, Theodor Adorno, said that the condition of truth is allowing suffering to speak. When you ask what difference it would have made, I think—and I know because I've spoken to so many victims—it would have made a huge difference for those individuals.

When the term “aggravated assault” is applied, it describes their experience, but the term “aggravated assault” can also be used to describe a fist fight. That is not appropriate. What these people have endured in the examples that I gave, Ted, and in the many other examples that exist, is torture. We need to call crimes what they are. We need to acknowledge that experience. When we do, healing can begin.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

I appreciate that because you've actually answered the next question I had.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Glad to do that for you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

“What difference would it make to the victims?” is the question I really wanted to get to eventually.

I would like to go back to the question I asked. When it comes to sentencing, what difference do you think it would make? I understand that from the victim's perspective the acknowledgement of what actually happened is important. I get that, and I think you're right. But I'd like to know, from a sentencing perspective, what difference you think your legislation would make.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

As I said, these crimes extend far beyond aggravated assault and do warrant a term of life imprisonment. However, because of legal ramifications that would follow from that, perhaps the committee will have a problem with that suggestion. If the term of sentence were changed, if it were vastly reduced—say, it was put to 14 years—that's something I in fact would accept because the difference would be that the victim's experience would be acknowledged. That is absolutely crucial.

Sentencing is not only about punishment. It's about helping the victim overcome what they've been through, the experience that they've dealt with, their ordeal. I think on that basis alone we need to acknowledge the suffering that has taken place and recognize exactly what Adorno said, that if suffering is allowed to speak, then we have a condition of truth.

That is why I'm passionate about this bill. I think it's a way to finally allow victims of torture to have their suffering acknowledged, publicly acknowledged, by the body politic.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

You sound like a Conservative.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Oh, I can assure you I'm not.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I think he meant it as a compliment. Let's all consider that whatever party you are part of, it is neither a compliment nor something bad. It's all good.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

It's an observation.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Fair enough.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

What I'm thinking of is the victims bill of rights that our government passed in the last session. From what you've described to me, that's really the intent of the bill.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Well, the victims bill of rights, Ted, did not say anything about acknowledging torture in the private sphere.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

No, so you're enhancing the work that the previous government already did.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Sure.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

I understand that, because what you're doing is looking at it from a victim's perspective, through the eyes of the victim, making sure that the victim receives priority in the justice system. I can appreciate that and I want to commend you on that.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

For me, and I've said this already, this is a human rights bill that is intent on making a change that acknowledges the suffering of victims but does so in a way that says punishment is certainly part of crime, but the way to create a just society is not by building more prisons, is not by re-emphasizing constantly the need for law and order. Of course, law and order matter. How do we achieve law and order in this country, and in any democratic society? Criminal codes are absolutely central to that, but when we enshrine human rights principles into the code, then we achieve a more just outcome.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much. That was a good round of questions.

Next we're going to go to Mr. Bittle.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thanks very much, Chair.

Peter, thank you so much for being here. You've provided excellent testimony on behalf of victims of torture.

First of all, I'll allow you to clarify a point, if you like, from our days in candidate school. I know you're a very strong Liberal and—